CRNA Vs. MD

Specialties CRNA

Published

Hello everyone, just found this site so this is my first post.

Currently I am an undergrad working on acceptance to medical school. I'm not going to lie though, a majority of the motivation is the money. I just discovered CRNA's though and they make a lot of money with little debt doing roughly the same thing I wanted to do in the first place. I have a few questions I hope someone can help me out with here:

1) On a day-to-day basis, what would a CRNA end up doing? This can be broad, I just want to get an idea of if it's just put patients to sleep and wake them up or more.

2) How long would it take me to get a CRNA. Currently I am a sophomore in Psychology (finished all physics, bio, chem, math).

Thanks!

I had to respond to the "they hold your life in their hands" part. Yeah, CRNA's sure do, so do anesthesiologists, so do bus drivers, etc ANd if the anesthesiologist was nowhere to be found, shame on the hospital. If the CRNA can practice independently, why worry about where the anesthesiologist was? Maybe he should have been siting his own case; that's why I do NOT supervise CRNA's.

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It is so presumptious of superiority when one makes ridiculous statements about holding ones life in their hands.... Airline pilots make less than CRNAs and hold the lives of hundreds to over a thousand in their hands every day. Workers in nuclear power plants make only a small fraction of CRNA salaries but hold the lives of millions in their hands everyday. I think CRNAs (and doctors) need to get real about their presumed self importance and need to recognize: 1. a person off the street can be trained to give anesthesia in a couple of months and do it well 2. other countries doctors and nurses make less than factory workers (eg. Germany) 3. both doctors and nurses in this country are way way overpaid.

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People who gripe about others being overpaid do not understand simple things like supply and demand. Or the fact that anesthesia makes the hospital money. In other words they are not CRNAs and have no concept of the job entails. they see their check and the CRNA jobs on gaswork or wherever and are basically jealous.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
I became a CRNA then took the unusual path to med school and became an anesthesiologist. There is no comparison between the 2 programs; both are intense and require a lot of work and if you are trying to complete either primarily for financial reasons, don't. If you want to work in anesthesia with the minimum investment in time and cost, go the CRNA route. You can get a fair amount of "bang for your buck" as a CRNA. I did it for a while and liked it, but after med school I realized that there was a lot that I did not know and my CRNA training was not as adequate as I would have liked. At some institutions, the nurses (CRNA's) and the physicians (MDA's) seem to get along; I was a great CRNA but was treated as a "worker" not a collegue by the MDA's. And after med school, I understand that medical doctors will almost never give a non-physician much respect; lip-service perhaps, but that's it. Now with healthcare reform and opt-in/opt out, the fur is really going to start to fly as the MDA's fight to keep their turf (or as they say, to protect the patient). Personally, I was proud to be a CRNA and I'm proud to be an MDA. My husband makes plenty so money isn't an issue for us; neither was the many years that I spent persuing my medical degree being paid at low wages. One observation: as many CRNA's become "militant" and insist that they can practice independently, I believe that they will be given the right to do so (at least for a while, in every state). In the furture, patients will be totally informed who is doing their anesthesia (MDA or nurse) and I believe that the veil of "supervision" will essentially vanish. I joined an MDA-only practice and do not supervise CRNA's, even though I was once one. I do not trash CRNA's, but when a patient asks me who is the best qualified to perform his/her anesthesia, I have to be honest and say an MDA, 1:1 without supervising CRNA. In the short-term, I think that more and more institutions will staff with the the cheapest anesthesia providers that they can get, probably AA's or even someone less qualified. The problem with believing that you can provide the same anesthesia with 4 CRNA "supervised" by one MDA is that the CRNA can supposedly work independently. Then why have the MDA at all? 99% of anesthesia can be safely provided by a person with little formal training, so why pay a CRNA 1/3 to 1/2 of what a MDA makes if you can use even cheaper help? How about 4 semi-AA's supervised by a CRNA? The CRNA still has to work under the licence of a physician (surgeon), so this would be legal. All this to say, if you want to work in anesthesia, best of luck. I think that CRNA's and AA's (and a lot of us MDA's) are going to be taking HUGE pay cuts shortly, that is if we can find jobs. My neighbor is a BC/BS administrator who had surgery on both arms, identical surgery R&L. First case: CRNA only, billed for something like $400. Second case: CRNA and MDA, billed for almost double. Both cases went fine. She said that they pay the MDA and CRNA the same based on time and complexity. How long do you think that they will continue to pay double? And if you think that the CRNA's will displace the MDA, I doubt it. As soon as they figure out that you can get a doc for the price of a nurse, who do you think will be looking for a new job? No disrespect to CRNA's; I'm too old to fight this mess and will probably retire before the issue is settled. The future isn't rosy.

I have heard this 99% argument over and over, but study after study doesn't show that 1% difference between CRNAs and MDAs.

Your talk of AA's being cheaper doesn't make since. AA's can't work without MDA supervision so it is always going to be more expensive than an all CRNA practice or an MDA/CRNA practice with each taking their own cases without supervision. AA's in general make the same as CRNAs where both work in the same facility. The purpose of AA's is simple, and it is for the ASA to maintain control.

I think it is great that you went back to school to become a physician/MDA if that is what you wanted to do, but for your comments telling patients that MDAs are better qualified to deliver their anesthesia I would say back it up with any valid research. Most MDAs ,unlike yourself, don't usually even do cases themselves, so how can an anesthesia provider that rarely does cases be competent based soley on their residency training.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
It is so presumptious of superiority when one makes ridiculous statements about holding ones life in their hands.... Airline pilots make less than CRNAs and hold the lives of hundreds to over a thousand in their hands every day. Workers in nuclear power plants make only a small fraction of CRNA salaries but hold the lives of millions in their hands everyday. I think CRNAs (and doctors) need to get real about their presumed self importance and need to recognize: 1. a person off the street can be trained to give anesthesia in a couple of months and do it well 2. other countries doctors and nurses make less than factory workers (eg. Germany) 3. both doctors and nurses in this country are way way overpaid.

What exactly is your salary paindoc, and since you think that physicians are overpaid how much of salary do you refuse to take or donate to charity?

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Anesthesiologist: 4 years medical school, 4 years of residency. 8 years to become a MD.

CRNA: 2 years BSN, 3 years getting required experience, 2.5 years school. 7.5 years to become a CRNA.

I'm not seeing much of a difference here? And the CRNA plan is assuming you can actually get 1 year full-time ICU experience that quickly out of school. On top of that, some schools require CCRN which takes longer. Since the OP has already been gearing the undergrad towards med school, I'd vote that med school is faster at this point in time.

I think you're forgetting that, most often, you have a 4 year undergrad degree for MD or at least time to complete the pre-requisites. And even then, after 4 years of med school and 4 years of residency, the person may do a fellowship to specialize in the kind of anesthesia they want to practice. 4 + 4 + 4, maybe +1 = 12-13 years.

Why are you factoring in 2 years for a BSN? Maybe I'm mistaken, but a traditional BSN program generally takes 4 years. I guess if you're doing an accelerated program, or maybe are a second degree student... Anyhow, 4 + 3 + 2.5 = 9.5.

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It is so presumptious of superiority when one makes ridiculous statements about holding ones life in their hands.... Airline pilots make less than CRNAs and hold the lives of hundreds to over a thousand in their hands every day. Workers in nuclear power plants make only a small fraction of CRNA salaries but hold the lives of millions in their hands everyday. I think CRNAs (and doctors) need to get real about their presumed self importance and need to recognize: 1. a person off the street can be trained to give anesthesia in a couple of months and do it well 2. other countries doctors and nurses make less than factory workers (eg. Germany) 3. both doctors and nurses in this country are way way overpaid.

As an ICU RN, IFR rated pilot, and an aspiring CRNA I feel that I can comment on this post. I have great respect for the MDAs and Pulmonologists that work in my ICU. The schooling and dedication that these MDs endure is truly amazing. The fact is, however, that MDs are still required to oversee most of a CRNAs practice which justifies the difference in compensation. As an ICU RN, I get great satisfaction from working WITH MDs to provide the best outcome for my patients which is what we should all be focused on- not a getting into a ******* match with each others' chosen professions. Both MDAs and CRNAs serve a vital role in today's healthcare and neither should be discounted.

As far as Pilot go and holding a life in one's hands- this is a completely different field. The job marked for pilots (especially the airline pilots flying the heavy metal) is super-saturated and like a previous poster said is a child of supply and demand. If you do get to the point without quitting after being furloghed numerous times, you can become an airline pilot making in some cases well into the six-figures (although not nearly as much as an MDA and with much more debt from training and with WAY more insecurity in your job). This really boils down to how much you want to be in your chosen profession. I would also challenge and MDA to spend an entire 12 hour shift with a terminally ill patient on pressors and on a HFO and their family consoling them and helping them through the difficult such a difficult time. We all bring different things to the table and the important thing to remember is that we do this for the patient- not the paycheck or the title.

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Specializes in Anesthesia.
The fact is, however, that MDs are still required to oversee most of a CRNAs practice which justifies the difference in compensation.

You have absolutely no idea what CRNAs practice is like as evidenced by your comment. MDs aren't required to oversee CRNA practice in any state, every state has CRNA only practices, and practices where CRNAs and MDAs work together but independently doing their own cases.

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As an ICU RN, IFR rated pilot, and an aspiring CRNA I feel that I can comment on this post. I have great respect for the MDAs and Pulmonologists that work in my ICU. The schooling and dedication that these MDs endure is truly amazing. The fact is, however, that MDs are still required to oversee most of a CRNAs practice which justifies the difference in compensation. As an ICU RN, I get great satisfaction from working WITH MDs to provide the best outcome for my patients which is what we should all be focused on- not a getting into a ******* match with each others' chosen professions. Both MDAs and CRNAs serve a vital role in today's healthcare and neither should be discounted.

As far as Pilot go and holding a life in one's hands- this is a completely different field. The job marked for pilots (especially the airline pilots flying the heavy metal) is super-saturated and like a previous poster said is a child of supply and demand. If you do get to the point without quitting after being furloghed numerous times, you can become an airline pilot making in some cases well into the six-figures (although not nearly as much as an MDA and with much more debt from training and with WAY more insecurity in your job). This really boils down to how much you want to be in your chosen profession. I would also challenge and MDA to spend an entire 12 hour shift with a terminally ill patient on pressors and on a HFO and their family consoling them and helping them through the difficult such a difficult time. We all bring different things to the table and the important thing to remember is that we do this for the patient- not the paycheck or the title.

Were are these rules mda's are required to over see crna? It's the darn dr who are pushing these these made up political rules but by law we dont need them and they dont like it period.

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You have absolutely no idea what CRNAs practice is like as evidenced by your comment. MDs aren't required to oversee CRNA practice in any state, every state has CRNA only practices, and practices where CRNAs and MDAs work together but independently doing their own cases.

CRNAs do have to be supervised. That is the main difference between a CRNA and AA. An AA has to be supervised by an anesthesiologist. A CRNA has to be supervised by a physician. Therefore, the surgeon counts as the supervising physician for the CRNA. They are not working indepedently. That physician supervision is required; it just doesn't have to be an anesthesiologist.

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CRNAs do have to be supervised. That is the main difference between a CRNA and AA. An AA has to be supervised by an anesthesiologist. A CRNA has to be supervised by a physician. Therefore, the surgeon counts as the supervising physician for the CRNA. They are not working indepedently. That physician supervision is required; it just doesn't have to be an anesthesiologist.

You are right a surgeon does have to make sure a Crna is capable to perform their work. But so do they supervise anesthesiologist too.

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CRNAs do have to be supervised. That is the main difference between a CRNA and AA. An AA has to be supervised by an anesthesiologist. A CRNA has to be supervised by a physician. Therefore, the surgeon counts as the supervising physician for the CRNA. They are not working independently. That physician supervision is required; it just doesn't have to be an anesthesiologist.

That is just so not right on so many levels. It all depends on the state. some require supervision, some collaboration.

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