CRNA with an actual PhD

allnurses Guide · Apr 6, 2008

I'm not talking about a DNAP, i'm talking about a PhD in physiology or pharmacology, biochemistry that could be useful and lucrative. You attend PhD classes during or after your MS is completed.
Has anyone completed any of these programs?....and if so, please describe it for us as i am interested in finding out as much as i can about them. Also, please let us know if you took PhD classes during your MS degree or waited, whether you went full time or part time and whatever other basics you can think of and how it has helped you in clinical practice setting.

The military encourages CRNAs to get their PhDs, not many do though. I know four CRNAs with their PhDs in hard sciences (2 in neuroscience, 1 in pharmacology, and 1 in biochemistry). We have two other instructors with their PhD in nursing and education. Unless civilian CRNA school is radically different, which I am pretty sure it isn't, you will not have any extra time to take extra classes while in school. I am holding down 18 graduate credit hours right now while in school and that is really a joke since it should be more like 27 credit hours based on the amount of work we have to do. As far as your other comment about being lucrative...PhDs careers are not usually lucrative and when and if you decide to do something with your PhD as a CRNA you would probably actually be curtailing your income potential not improving it. PhDs are usually involved in teaching and/or research these two careers aren't conducive to a lucrative career.

RedCell · Apr 6, 2008

As far as your other comment about being lucrative...PhDs careers are not usually lucrative and when and if you decide to do something with your PhD as a CRNA you would probably actually be curtailing your income potential not improving it. PhDs are usually involved in teaching and/or research these two careers aren't conducive to a lucrative career.

Which is why a DNP or any other clinical doctorate makes much more sense. Especially for those of us who do not get all giddy at the thought of doing research. Some schools now, such as Virginia Commonwealth, offer doctoral courses that students can take while simultaneously enrolled in anesthesia school. You can graduate and work as a CRNA while completing their DNAP degree having already taken a large portion of the course work.

I would imagine as that doctorate deadline approaches for advanced practice nurses, more universities will model this approach of education.

proclivity · Apr 9, 2008

Which is why a DNP or any other clinical doctorate makes much more sense. Especially for those of us who do not get all giddy at the thought of doing research. Some schools now, such as Virginia Commonwealth, offer doctoral courses that students can take while simultaneously enrolled in anesthesia school. You can graduate and work as a CRNA while completing their DNAP degree having already taken a large portion of the course work.
I would imagine as that doctorate deadline approaches for advanced practice nurses, more universities will model this approach of education.

I have come to the personal understanding that the DNAP is a complete joke and will provide nothing.......in the way of anything.

I have also come to understand that if i want to love what i do and love why i do it, i will need an actual PhD and not a DNAP.......CHEMISTRY ROCKS MY WORLD!!!!!!!!:heartbeat:D:yeah:

RedCell · Apr 11, 2008

I have come to the personal understanding that the DNAP is a complete joke and will provide nothing.......in the way of anything.
I have also come to understand that if i want to love what i do and love why i do it, i will need an actual PhD and not a DNAP.......CHEMISTRY ROCKS MY WORLD!!!!!!!!:heartbeat:D:yeah:

Dude, I like the response. Bottom line is this. AACN wants all APNs to have a doctorate degree for entry level practice by said date. I think this is a good thing as it shows we are serious about education and patient care. What better way to prove this than with a terminal degree. The DNP is not a bad way to meet this requirement. CRNAs/NPs are for the most part practitioners in the clinical setting. Why not get a clinical doctorate?

Nothing wrong with going for the Ph.D in chemistry. I like chemistry, you get a lot of it in anesthesia school, makes for an easy A in multiple classes if you have some previous undergrad classes in it.

Will the DNP provide me with nothing beneficial? Of course not. For all the young dudes like me graduating before this is required, not having the doctorate could cost me a job in the future if I am the masters educated CRNA and not a more recent doctorate CRNA. If I was like some of the studs who have already been practicing for years, I probably would not care too much. However, as someone hopefully looking to be in practice for the next 30 years (assuming I can graduate and pass boards), I do consider not having a doctorate a reasonable handicap.

Who would be the better practitioner the Ph.D or DNP? Hell I don't know, I'm not even a CRNA yet, but it is probably a toss up. Book smarts don't count for anything compared to someone packing heat in the real world (clinical anesthesia).

Is the DNP a joke....yes, but so is anything else compared to nurse anesthesia school. Bottom line is this, write a big paper, go to some classes and biggity bam here is your doctorate. Ph.D, Ed.D, DNP, DNAP whatever, you are now a competive force to be reconed with when compared to future doctorate prepared APNs.

proclivity · Apr 13, 2008

Hey RedCell and others reading this thread........after getting through the "Report of the AANA Task Force on Doctoral Preparation of Nurse Anesthetists" (which, by the way, had entirely too small of a sample size.....so take it with fair sized grain of salt), i am starting to understand more point of views on the subject. I think it is very important to understand where everyone is coming from on the subject, including but not limited to the crna schools, the -ologists, the currently practicing crnas with no masters as well as those with masters degrees (concerning being grandfathered in), current crna students, new grads (concerning going back to school) and me, of course.

I would recommend the read to everyone here. It has some interesting points. A couple of things that i read i would like to point out.

This comments is completely asinine and will only cause more of a rift between nurses and docs....the comment went something like this: CRNA school is like doing medical school and residency in 2 years.

Now, i know it is only one comment, but it is comments like these that can sour the relationships between entire anesthesia groups.

Personally, i think that there should be stratification regarding pay and or benefits for crnas with any sort of post masters degree.....seems like good old capitalism will bring us that way anyhow.

comments?

RedCell · Apr 13, 2008

I just read the PDF version of the AANA's task force on the doctoral preparation of nurse anesthetists. Gotta say the multicultural thing always cracks me up. Couldn't find the quote you were concerned about regarding the medical school vs CRNA school. I like you disagree with it. You cannot compare medical school to nurse anesthesia school because different things are taught. They are learning the practice of medicine and nurse anesthesia students are learning the practice of nursing. To throw out a controversial statement though, why would someone go to medical school for 4 years followed by internship, followed by residency, followed by a possible fellowship to become a nurse anesthetist?

There will always be rifts between CRNAs, AAs, and anesthesiologists. It is what is is. From what I have seen in the real world, it is rarely a problem in the ACT practice model. It is apparent however, on message boards such as these. I have enjoyed learning this trade in institutions that utilize the ACT model as well as institutions that utilize CRNA only practice. There are benefits to both, especially when you are still a student.

What I took away from the PDF is that we will eventually go to mandatory doctoral education of CRNAs. As I said earlier, if I was one of these guys who had been doing this job for years, I could care less. However, since I am at the beginning, I think getting a doctorate degree now, will make me competitive with the new guys when this thing becomes official.

As far as pay goes, captialism will help to solve the problem you were discussing. I think it will be interesting however, to see how this whole socialized medicine gimmick pans out. It is going to happen eventually as there are a lot of unmotivated people in the United States that would rather buy spinner rims and plasma televisions than health insurance for themselves and their families. When they are bussed in to the local voting precincts you know what the are going to vote for. Medicaid/Medicare have already started with the reimbursement cuts, I am sure there are more to follow. Still doesn't change the fact that this is a pretty cool job, almost as fun as 10 foot walls of surf with barrels lasting from sun up to sun down. Actually that never happens on the east coast, but you get my point.

mcvcrna · Apr 22, 2008

There are plenty of CRNAs in the profession with PhDs. Comparing the difference between a PhD and the practice doctorate is like comparing apples and oranges. Its the same difference when comparing any clinical doctorate with and academic doctorate--they are different with different goals in mind.

Proclivity, there is no such statement comparing med school to CRNA training--which is besides the point. However, as a SRNA or CRNA you research, study, read, interpret, and utilized all the same books, research, and literature available to MDAs. The anesthesia books for sale at CRNA conferences are the identical books at the MDA conferences. If you don't know the material just as well as an MDA then its your problem. If this is the case then you should just tell your patients that if something goes wrong then "you might have to wait 10minutes or so until the MDA gets here to fix it." If you think being a CRNA is such a joke and so inferior--hit the road. This profession doesn't need members who don't take it seriously. The anesthesia community is a small and close knit community--oh yeah--your not one yet. With that attitude I question whether you'll be one anyway. I am disheartened to read the statements of what is soon to be our future. I am currently an old timer and am working on my DNAP. You think its a joke? Bring it on! Great, more seat warmers just in it for the money. What a future for you!

The DNP and DNAP are aimed at making the clinical professional more well rounded both clinically and professionally. The 'eight essentials' mandated for nursing based doctorates (DNP) were designed to aid in keeping the goals of both nursing based and allied health based CRNA programs consistent with graduate requirements--there is a desire to produce a similar practitioner. A consideration that was the result of the inconsistent curriculum requirements when graduating from an MSN or MSNA based program. Lesson learned and echoed loudly.

The 3 core areas of the practice doctorate focus on patient safety, research, and leadership. All qualities that will enable the CRNA to increase and utilize evidence-based practice measures, improve leadership abilities, improve educational skills, increase safety, and understand the political and business arena surrounding CRNAs in the real world. This is not the focus of a PhD. Even the PhD instructors recognize the different goals of the program and PhD candidates have even voiced a desire to get some of same courses that we are. Of course, this probably goes both ways. Like Debbie stated--you can't compare apples to oranges.

Currently, I am enrolled in the DNAP program at VCU. I have to take exception to your notion that it is a walk in the park. I am working my butt off. They are not giving this degree away. There has been some insinuation that internet based education makes it easier. On the contrary, if all I had to do was sit in the class for the semester hours per week I am taking; I truly believe it would be easier. As it is, the internet is on 24/7. Not a day goes by where I don't spend a significant portion of time on the blackboard assignments, extensive readings, and endless concentrated research on anesthesia focused issues. Don't be mislead. Fact is, many PhD programs are subscribing to this same format--internet based that is.

I just wanted to start off this forum with a little basic information from both an objective standpoint as well as the incorporation of a subjective anecdotal position. I hope this can be an area where we can learn from one another as well as aid in the development of what is sure to be a continual fluid process. Currently, there are not that many practice doctorate students out there.

At VCU, there are 7 CRNAs (including myself) and about 11 SRNA matriculating through the program. The next class are in the process of deciding, on an individual basis, whether to commit to the doctorate or matriculate via the masters.

The fact is, neither of you understand what its all about. Redcell, this is a PROFESSION not a trade. I'm embarrassed, as a CRNA, that you don't know the difference yet. In reality, you won't get it until your out of school for at least a year. That's a shame, your program should be teaching you better. Wake up! People read this stuff. If you have no pride in what your doing then change what you are doing. :banghead:

nurseabc123 · Apr 24, 2008

I'm not talking about a DNAP, i'm talking about a PhD in physiology or pharmacology, biochemistry that could be useful and lucrative. You attend PhD classes during or after your MS is completed.
Has anyone completed any of these programs?....and if so, please describe it for us as i am interested in finding out as much as i can about them. Also, please let us know if you took PhD classes during your MS degree or waited, whether you went full time or part time and whatever other basics you can think of and how it has helped you in clinical practice setting.

Wayne State U. in Detroit has a run-in PhD program with the Physio and Pharm depts. Just fyi.