There is a thread below that advises NOT telling your instrutors while working on..

London88 · Aug 25, 2002

Unfortunantely the anti CRNA attitude also surfaces in the workplace. I had a discussion with my boss earlier on this year in terms of hiring new staff, and he stated that he screens his applicants carefully because some of them only want to work in ICU to get the experience required for CRNA school. I told my boss that he needs to reevaluate his thinking in times like this when there is such a nursing shortage. I asked him what is wrong with hiring a nurse who who gives two years of continuous service who then leaves to go to CRNA shool? He attempted to rationalize by saying that it costs a lot of money to put them through twleve weeks of orientation, remember orientation is non productive time, just to have them leave after two years. I asked him does he think that bringing in agency staff is more cost effective, because we sure use a lot of them? The point being made is that prejudisms exist even when they are irrational. He did not find out about my intentions to go to CRNA school until he received the forms for my references for CRNA school.

Roland · Aug 25, 2002

Wouldn't an ICU nurse who becomes a CRNA be a huge potential asset to his institution? I know that if I LIKE the place where I get my ICU experence that it would receive my primary consideration after I graduated from CRNA school.

Also, are you not concerned that his negative attitude might be reflected in the quality of your references? If so do you have any advice to minimize this situation. Examples, might include turning down hiring bonuses (because you know you will be leaving in a year or two), and or working for a "Temp/Travel" agency that will place you in ICU's.

I suppose this will be another issue to tackle once I graduate with my BSN. However, I will lean towards being open with the jobs for which I apply.

Thanks,

OldTimeNurse · Aug 25, 2002

I have been a nursing instructor for over ten years and havn't witnessed anything remotely like what is being described above. We don't care about your views (unless you're expousing them when you should be learning) nor do we care about your amibitions (except to help you achieve them). Have any of you actually seen these examples of discrimination first hand? One poster above ask the question of "who you would complain to?" Well at most reputable institutions student complaints are taken quite seriously espcially when discrimination is alleged. All it takes is a written complaint to the dean of nursing and a formal investigation is automatically commensed.

I don't know any professors who would risk their jobs over a difference of opinion. I think much of this is a nursing version of Urban Legends.:roll

kmchugh · Aug 25, 2002

Sorry, Oldtimenurse, but I experienced some of this discrimination first hand. In fact, sit down with some CRNA's, ask them about it. You may be suprised by what you hear. I'm a bit insulted by your "load of bunk" comment. Maybe you should investigate before making snap judgements. After all, you have no personal experience to base your judgements on, only that "you can't believe a nursing instructor would do such a thing." Dearie, I have experienced it first hand.

In my case, I have a sister who has her PhD in nursing (not nurse anesthesia), and is a nursing instructor. When I got out of the military, I had looked into a few different career options, and decided on becoming a CRNA. My sister supported my decision, but warned me to be circumspect about talking about my ultimate goals.

In my undergraduate studies, I mostly kept my mouth shut about my plans, and had little trouble. However, classmates who were more verbal about wanting to be CRNA's described less even handed treatment. However, my undergraduate program may have been unusual. We also had an instructor in OB who honestly believed that men had no place in nursing, and made the road for male students as tough as she could. I can tell you about more than one male student who had straight A's, or nearly so, before starting OB, but ending up barely scraping by with a C in OB. She had a more difficult time with me, since I had a relative on the graduate faculty, but I could still tell you horror stories. So bad that I came within a hair's breadth of quitting nursing school altogether. Again, sit down with a group of male students, and ask about gender discrimination in nursing schools. Most will have at least one story to relate.

Kevin McHugh

London88 · Aug 25, 2002

Roland, you raise some valid points, however you are thinking rationally in terms of wanting to be a CRNA in that institution. Hence my point about my boss having irrational prejudisms. In terms of my references I did not waive my right to see my references for CRNA school. There are some disadvantages to this in that one might say that the person writing the reference feels obligated to write a decent reference. On the other hand, I would like to be able to view the reference because if I have received an above average evaluation from my boss for the last two years, and low and behold all of a sudden I have a bad reference, then we have a problem. I am entitled to a copy of my evaluation which I can always submit to the CRNA school to show that there is a conflict between my evaluation and the reference. I have no problem "rocking the boat when the situation is warranted," and my boss is well aware of that. I will not have my rights violated and I have no problem taking the situation to the top. Fortunately, my boss gave me good references.

Oldtime Nurse

There is nothing like insulting others without having justification for the insults. What is considered "bunk" for you has been a reality for others. Those instructors who have tenure have very little risk. Nurses have a tendency to eat their own and this is not based on "urban legends."

mark_LD_RN · Aug 25, 2002

i have never seen this personally. my instructors when i was in college always encouraged me to do more, had ones tell me to be MD, some told me to become Np or CNM, others encouraged me to go on for my masters, I am currently working on my CNM degree. I am also an instructor and encourage my students to advance their education just like my instructors did for me. I doubt i would have pursued any further education if it were not for my instructors.

i also believe that the future of nursing depends of nurses making the effort to get advanced education.

and for the students become nurses only to be CRNA for the money . I don't agree with that at all. My son is in nursing school now plans on becoming a CRNA because he wants to help people. I had wanted to become a CRNA but while in school I found my niche was L&D so i never pursued the CRNA route and do not regret it one bit. I am sure there are students that do it for the money just like there are nurses that become nurses just for the money. same holds true for doctors. If you don't love what you do you will be miserable and noit very good at it.

i am sure there are instructors out there that discourage and discriminate against students, I one instructor that discriminated against me just because i am a male. Just because they have a degree and teach does not mean they are professionals.

kmchugh · Aug 25, 2002

Mark

I really like seeing male RN's who work in LD and excell at it. My OB rotation in nursing school was the one that was so bad I wanted to quit. The thought of having to return to OB for part of my CRNA schooling gave me serious pause, though I ultimately decided to tough it out. I'm glad I did, because I loved my anesthesia OB rotation.

Your point about instructors and professionalism is well taken. I have run into people from all walks of life, and all professions, who lack professionalism, or allow personal beliefs to skew their professional behavior. What bothers me as much are the people like Oldtimenurse who bury thier head in the sand and swear it doesn't happen. That demeans those of us it happened to even further.

Kevin McHugh

Roland · Aug 25, 2002

1. Quest, I DO watch Donahue (when I have time) and listen to NPR everyday on my way to classes. I like information from ALL sides of the issues, sometimes my positions are modified or changed based upon new information (for instance O'Reilly convinced me to be anti-death penalty in favor of life in prison with hard labor). I respect everyones right to have any position they want. In addition, I believe that the crucible of debate is one of the best ways to elicit truth.

2. London, What do you THINK your boss would say if you could sit him down and say something akin to he following: "What would you do (Mr. Boss) were you in my position with the ambition of becoming a CRNA? CRNA schools REQUIRE the critical care experience to apply. If you were made the God of all things nursing what policies would you implement to deal with this situation? One example might be the creation of paid internships for those who will be going on to further their education within two years of graduating with BSN's (but which do not pay at the level of RN's with no such plans to leave). Perhaps this would be a compromise acceptible to both the student and the employer.

3. Kevin, did the OBGYN, clinical, rotation instructor actually come and and SAY she didn't believe men should be in nursing? I'm not saying she didn't discriminate but sometimes actions which are not discrimination can be misunderstood as being that which they are not. Consider, that my wife and I went into a small Mexican restaurant we frequent on a regular basis about two weeks ago. Unlike, their normal excellant service we were seemingly IGNORED for about thirty minutes (even after I asked one of the passing waiters to please get us someone). Had I been a minority I very well might have felt myself to be the victim of discrimination. It turned out we were sat in a "dead zone" that had not been assigned to ANY of the servers, it was just a mistake.

What do you think that instructor would have said had I gone to her with something like:

"Look Mrs. instructor I have never received less than an "A "in my life but I am now earning a "C" in your class. I realize that past performance is no guarentee of future success however you can see that I take your class quite seriously (I never miss class, read the covered material before class, and take advantage of office hours when availible). What can I do to raise my grade in your class?" If she came back with a discriminatory statement such as "well I just don't beleive that nursing is an ideal career choice for men."; I might respond with something like "Look when I was in the Navy there were those who didn't believe that women should be there and BELIEVING that is OKAY in fact as an American who holds our Bill of Rights dear I would die to defend your right to believe whatever you feel is correct. However, when you ACT upon those beliefs in a manner which hurts others and goes against the policies of the institution in which you serve it is not a good thing. If you think men shouldn't be in nursing then fight for that perspective at the POLITICAL level but don't penalize those who are just trying to be good students and support their families. Because when you discriminate against ME you are also hurting my wife and kid, as well as undermining the TRUST your employers have placed in you."

Finally, there is the point to be made that if this instructor is one of those who subscribe to the notion that CRNA's are not truly "nurses", and it is my desire as a man to become a CRNA. Well, then the best thing she could do is give me an so I can remove myself from nursing (at least in her eyes). On the other hand if she marks me down to a "C" undeservedly, well this might make it harder for me to get accepted into CRNA school. I might have no choice but to remain a staff nurse for a much longer period of time. Even by the logic of her own prejudice she would be helping to create a result which she opposes (men in nursing).

Qwiigley, BSN, MSN, DNP, RN, CRNA · Aug 25, 2002

In our class at MSMC in Los Angeles, we had one male student that was just a loser. No one had the balls to give him bad grades because they didn't want to discriminate. (We were in a mostly all women's college- males accepted in PT and Nursing) In his OB rotation, something happened, and he failed. I don't know what it was, but this kid was not a good nurse. We shared other rotations, so I saw him in action. Like I said above, I think there whould be more men in the profession... too bad this one did nothing for the cause.

Roland · Aug 25, 2002

In what ways was he a bad nurse? In other words can you remember the specific behaviors (or lack there of) which made him deficient? Maybe there is something I can learn from his mistakes to reduce the chances that I will emulate them. I DO have to struggle with "practical" things (I can still remember that in Boy Scout Summer camp it took me FOREVER to learn how to properly tie the knots required for a particular merit badge.) Maybe, if I can learn what practical things are likely to pose the greatest challenge, I can spend extra time in the skills lab to compensate.

Thanks,

kmchugh · Aug 26, 2002

Roland

Actually, she did say specifically that men did not belong in nursing, though I was not there at the time. OB and peds rotations were each 1/2 semester in my school. A section of all females went through the OB portion (all female because the class consisted of three males, luck of the draw). When she walked into the classroom, she surveyed her students, then said "This is how it should be. All women. Men do not belong here."

I received no fewer than three independent reports, at separate times, from women who were present when this was said. It was, as far as I was concerned, only the icing on the cake. If you spoke to any male who went through the program while she was teaching, they will relate many of the same difficulties I had.

Kevin McHugh

mark_LD_RN · Aug 26, 2002

Roland, be aware discrimination is out there! like i said before i had an instructor that openly discriminated against males. example she would let females pick their own patients while she picked them for the males, i had request no female patients at first, well she assigned me a 36 yr old female that had a mastectomy and a female that just had a D&C. next day she assigned me a little old man thatt had lung ca, he had said it was ok to have students just no males well i got him as a patient when patient complained i told her she just said"so you want to be a nurse huh, well deal with it" on another occasion she told me males are not nurses and can not be nurses and i will see to that" well i reported her to the dean which to my beniefit was a friend of mine and my wife. she ended up gettting fired for her discrimination.

but out in the real world discrimination is alive and well against males. try to get a job in OB as a male and see. I have been denied jobs on numerous occassions just because of my gender and have been told so.

nurses need to act like professionals and stop all forms of discrimination if we are to ever advance as a profession.