Anyone out there for the creation of the National Anesthesia games? - page 2

I've been thinking of ways in which CRNA's might "gain more respect" from the mainstream medical community (MDA's in particular). The parallel which occured to me was of all things home schooled... Read More

  1. by   Roland
    restate the point in even stronger (but still logically valid) terms. If Charles Manson wrote the next thesis on general relativity from his prison cell and it was valid it would be a good idea without regard to the fact that he came up with the proposal. In answer to the advice about being perceived as a "know it all" I try never
    to calculate how people will perceive what I say. Rather, it is my intention to be an advocate for the truth as I see it, the consequences be dammed. I consider Barry Goldwater and Paul Wellstone to be my ideological heros in this regard. I still believe that people are in large part kind, fair and loving, and won't often hold sincere opinions against those who passionately present them. Furthermore, I don't really care if people agree with me in the end, but I do hope to inspire them to "think" about issues in ways they have perhaps not done so before.

    One other point. I was remiss in saying that nothing I might learn could change my opinion on these "games". Instead, I should have said "nothing that I am likely to learn in school". Formalized competition is part of my core belief system. It would be like suggesting to Rush Limbaugh that he might change his mind on increasing taxes after addtional education. He might, but the chances are indeed slim.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 27, '02
  2. by   ICUBecky
    face it...there is always going to be competition and/ or some disrespect between MDs and nurses...i don't see it ever changing. it's been like that since Florence Nightengale, and it will be like that into the future.

    how about instead of holding competitions between nurses (not specifically CRNAS) and physicians...we as nurses PROVE ourselves in the work setting... many don't. enough said.

    tenesma gives me a lot of hope and also reaffirms the fact that there are physicians out there that truly appreciate us. there are probably more out there than we think. they just don't want to admit it!
  3. by   MK2002

    I have to agree with the others on this issue. The notion of National Anesthesia Games is a little too far out. Just let it go. Not everything works out in life. After all, would you expect funeral directors to have a Casket Toss Distance Challenge, or annual get together barbecue?

    As for Charlie, if you saw the Tom Snyder interview about 20 years ago, it is clear that Manson is content in playing mind games forever in the jailhouse. Here's a link to a web page that has a spoof about him. My co-workers and I laugh about it, because Manson is such a mixed up character he could have never really been interviewed for the topic.
  4. by   kmchugh
    Originally posted by Roland
    In answer to the advice about being perceived as a "know it all" I try never to calculate how people will perceive what I say. Rather, it is my intention to be an advocate for the truth as I see it, the consequences be dammed.
    But, at this point, any truth you see will be from the viewpoint of someone who is not even doing nursing, much less doing anesthesia. You raise the idea of Einstein performing brilliant work while in school. Not a good example. It would be far more fitting if Einstein had performed such brilliant work before ever taking a class in physics. That is currently where you are. You've never taken a class in nursing, much less anesthesia, yet you purport to know what would and would not be good for CRNA's. Get some experience under your belt before telling us how to be the professionals we are.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA
  5. by   Roland
    in order to manifest their logic. Thus, it is not necessary for me to deeply study American history to determine that slavery was wrong, nor is it required that I have a PhD in economics to state that OPEC can effect an increase in gasoline prices by curtailing supply. In like manner it is not necessary that I be a nurse or have experience in anesthesia (although as a corpman in the Navy I did have exposure to many aspects of both) to have a valid perspective on the POSSIBLE benefits of competition. Heck, its not uncommon to have multimillion dollar companies pay large sums of money to outsourced companies/individuals who have NO specific experience in the business of THAT organization or even the business in which that organization is engaged for the purpose of offering their perspective and advice for the improvement of their organization, (although the adviseability of doing so is certainly open to question my point is simply that such practices are part of mainstream thinking).

    Again, the idea of Anesthesia Olympics is simply an idea nothing more one which may be good and it may be crummy. However, my deeper point is that you should curtail criticisms to the merits of the idea or proposal rather than the quality of the messenger. This then is the question which I submit to the assembled masses, whether or not it is acceptible to offer sincere, deeply felt and reasoned opinions if one is lacking in specific experience. If your answer is no then I ask you to reflect upon what ramifications such a paradigm holds for the future of a world in which few of us can be experts at everything. Far better to support a model in which ALL sincere individuals feel free to bring forth their best intellectual efforts upon the crucible of public debate and scruitiny without fear of personal degradation.
    This is the view of America and the scientific process that I have grown to love and it is this perspective that I will seek to promote.
  6. by   fence
    Hey!! Sign me up! Sounds like a great stress reliever. As for the anesthesia games. I think it might just dig a larger rift between the two professions. How would the outcomes of these games be judged? I think it would be very subjective. This is just my thoughts. I am not a CRNA but have been an RN for 5 years. My best idea to help CRNA's or nursing in general to look more favorably upon by other professions, is for nurses to figure out a way to get along, establish one entry level to the profession of nursing ( basic RN) and to unite. Just my humble opinion.
    Roland, you sound like you are very creative and willing to take chances. You ran this one up the flagpole and it got shot down. Keep at it you will come up with something.
    Last edit by fence on Oct 27, '02
  7. by   WntrMute2
    To equate the realization that slavery is wrong, to the idea that competivive games between Mds and CRNAs has merit must be a joke and if not - an insult.
  8. by   London88
    Roland I would like to commend you on your excellent command of the English language. However, I fail to see your parallel to slavery in terms of knowing what would constitute a good competitive game between CRNAs and MDAs. I do respect your opinion in terms of having these games as everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I am lost in terms of you paralleling your opinion to to the issue of slavery. What does your knowledge that slavery was wrong without experiencing it have to do with knowing what would be a good competitive game between CRNAs and MDAs?
    Last edit by London88 on Oct 27, '02
  9. by   meandragonbrett
    Originally posted by MK2002

    After all, would you expect funeral directors to have a Casket Toss Distance Challenge, or annual get together barbecue?

    That is too funny!!
  10. by   meandragonbrett
    I have one question that i'm just dying to ask you about your anesthesia games. Will you have humans or simulators for the CRNAs and MDs to compete on?
    Last edit by meandragonbrett on Oct 27, '02
  11. by   Roland
    First the comparison to slavery (perhaps a poor choice) was to illustrate that specific experience with an issue is not mandated in order to have an opinion ABOUT an issue (perhaps even a good one) although it is certainly helpful. Thus, few people out there have experienced slavery (unless perhaps you are from certain parts of Africa where the abomination is still practiced) yet we can still express a valid opinion upon the idea. This point also responds to the concept often expressed in popular culture that "you can't judge a man until you've walked in his shoes". There is truth in concept that experience is relevent to be sure, but it is often used as a sword to abrupty truncate debate upon an issue or to silence certain quarters of dissent. Numerous other examples abound of contributions to debate without extensive experience. When Upton Sinclair wrote his famous teatise on the meat packing industry in Chicago (The Jungle) although he did extensive research on the subject he had not actually worked in the industry. Thus, using the standard put forth in earlier posts he might well have been criticised for lacking specific experience upon which to base his opinions.

    As to the specific make up of my "anesthesia olympics" I would leave it up to those with more specific knowledge than I to determine the specific events, and the specifications for those events. However, we might look to other "scholarly" competitions such as Chemistry to get some general ideas. For instance with Chemistry it is my understanding that the national championships (practiced at the secondary and I believe post secondary levels) have both written portions testing various aspects of inorganic and organic Chemistry. Furthermore, there is a "labratory" portion where various experiements are conducted and then evaluated.

    Using this as a template we might envision a competition with a one hundred question test with questions ranging from the moderately easy to the incredibly complex. The practical component would be more difficult to implement. However, I believe that there are various "patient simulators" (here I'm thinking of the dummy from CPR training but at a much more complex level) which could be modified for use in various simulations with the contestents actions being graded for efficacy by a panel of "experts". One might even imagine that progress on "artificial patient simulators" might be fostered by such a competition with vast and incalcuable beneficial uses for students both MDA's and CRNA's. Who knows how many lives might be saved due to these possible advances in training methods. One might even argue that to oppose this idea is to oppose saving lives (okay so that is a ridiculous argument but its the kind of thing that liberal Democrats routinely accuse Republicans in Congress of for opposing their programs such as when President Bush initially decided not to lower arsenic standards in drinking water.) Also, keep in mind that this would not be a battle of CRNA's verses MDA's per se. Rather, it might provide ONE benchmark against which to measure CRNA and MDA performance.

    Perhaps this proposal would be more palatable as a part of a larger event such as The National Health Professionals Olympiad. Such an event might feature competitions for various and diverse specialties ranging from EMT's, to physical therapy specialists and pharmacists. However, such an event would be rather more ambitious than my very meager proposal.
    Last edit by Roland on Oct 27, '02
  12. by   Brenna's Dad
    23 replies, and 230 views, not bad Roland.
  13. by   kmchugh

    I have given this thread some thought, and have reached some conclusions. Here they are:

    I did not come up on the CRNA portion of this bulletin board to debate with people who were not even nurses yet on the best way to become a CRNA, nor on the professional aspects of being a CRNA. If I want a debate, there are a lot of other areas on the board where I can get that. I came here, as I have said before, to partially repay the debt I owed others who helped me get where I am today. This is also a great place for exchanging ideas about doing anesthesia. If you get as far as a CRNA program, you will learn there are a whole lot of ways to skin this cat, and generally speaking, none of them are "wrong." By the way, that's another reason your "Anesthesia Games" won't work. Tenesma and I might give two completely different answers to a question, and both of us could be right.

    In this thread, you have repeatedly told me that I was wrong, and you were right about the creation of "Anesthesia Games." Fine. When you are a CRNA, you go right ahead and establish those games. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you will have MDA's and CRNA's lining up for the honor of competing. I doubt it, but I can't see the future.

    In other threads, you have taken me to task for advice I have given others on attitudes, use of the CRNA title, and so forth. In every case, what you failed to realize was that though I might be direct, the advice was given in the spirit of trying to help others get through a particularly difficult, long, and often politically charged course of study. Rest assured, the "advice" they would get from CRNA's and MDA's in their programs will often be much more direct, and much more damaging.

    Allow me to dispense one piece of advice to you, and I promise you it will be absolutely the last advice you ever receive from me. You have not been where I have, you have not yet done what I have. You cannot, therefore, judge the rightness of what I say, arguments to the contrary not withstanding. From your posts, I can tell you are an intelligent person. Unfortunately, your intelligence has led you to believe that you are somehow superior, your ideas should never be questioned, and by debate you can convince us of the purity of your intellect. Before you start any CRNA program (and probably before you ever start clinicals in nursing school) you need to lose that attitude. If you don't your head will be handed to you by the CRNA's with whom you work. About the third time your program director hears from a CRNA or MDA that you refuse to listen because you think you know better than they do, you will be shown the door. All your arguments about how smart you are, about how you don't need to be a CRNA to understand what might be good for CRNA's, about how unfair it is that you have paid your money and now your are "owed" something, willl avail you nothing. You will be out on your butt. Remember, the dumbest CRNA in the world has the one thing you don't: The title CRNA. As long as you are a student, that dumb CRNA will hold enormous power over you. Those who are in programs now will confirm that the CRNA's who are teaching them will brook very little of the nonsense you put out.

    Enough said. If you want to debate these things, I will bow out. If you want to believe that I, who has applied, been accepted, graduated a program and passed boards, know less about the profession than you, fine. Good luck.

    Kevin McHugh, CRNA
    Last edit by kmchugh on Oct 28, '02

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