Agenda for Change

mabel u.k · Jul 4, 2006

I have a couple of points and questions, there are enquiries so please don't take them personally:

How well did you all look at your job descriptions before you signed it off, did you compare it to national profiles to make sure you had all of the aspects that you needed on there to get the band you expected, similarly with the effort factors questionaires.

Just a little point, I don't know what other places are doing but banding all E grades as 6's sounds very expensive. What did your F's and G's come out as, did the other areas have things such as managment, nurse led initiatives within thier job descriptions to account for the descrepancy. What speciality within surgery do you work in, could this account for the difference between the bandings.

Do you know what plans the management would have for replacing these band 6 posts, would they be down graded to save money, potentially in 5 years the trust could be paying the majority of the ward the equivelant of a junior sister pay.

I work as a Nurse Practitioner and we have been banded along with the specialist nurses as 6's, we run nurse led clinics, admit and discharge patients independently, have prescribing powers through masters level study, although our jobs are very different the experience that is required as a start point for the NP's and CNS's is degree level with an expectation for masters with supplementary prescribing and when it comes in independent prescribing. I would be dissapointed to find out that nurses with 18 months experience and no requirement for degree level could potentially be banded at the same level. Please don't misunderstand me, this is not devaluing the ward level nurses but the requirement for an E grade is much less that NP/CNS or even F grade senior staff nurse / sister for that matter and yet they are to be banded at the same level.

My other question would be that if your appeal is successful, are you and your fellow E grades prepared to be working at junior sister level as your F grades are now because the KSF expectations for a band 6 nurse will be the same so it will mean more work and responsibility for you.

When you appeal try to use wording from the band 6 nurse profile to justify your appeal, there are national profiles that you will have been matched against find the band 6 and use similar wording to establish that you are working at that level.

It would seem that to have so many equivelent level nurses banded differently there could be differences in the job descriptions, it would be worth having a look at those that had 6's to see what was in there.

Good luck with your appeal, I hope you have supportive managment to help you through this period.

unlucky-on-call · Jul 4, 2006

They are just beginning to roll out agenda for change in Edinburgh all D and as far as I am aware, most E grades, were banded 5. Although E's have more dicretionary points than D's.

F grades were banded 6 and I am not sure where the G's ended up?

madwife2002, BSN, RN · Jul 4, 2006

In my trust D's & E's got band 5, F's got band 6 and G's got band 7.

safewaygreenbox · Jul 5, 2006

I have a couple of points and questions, there are enquiries so please don't take them personally:
How well did you all look at your job descriptions before you signed it off, did you compare it to national profiles to make sure you had all of the aspects that you needed on there to get the band you expected, similarly with the effort factors questionaires.
Just a little point, I don't know what other places are doing but banding all E grades as 6's sounds very expensive. What did your F's and G's come out as, did the other areas have things such as managment, nurse led initiatives within thier job descriptions to account for the descrepancy. What speciality within surgery do you work in, could this account for the difference between the bandings.
Do you know what plans the management would have for replacing these band 6 posts, would they be down graded to save money, potentially in 5 years the trust could be paying the majority of the ward the equivelant of a junior sister pay.
I work as a Nurse Practitioner and we have been banded along with the specialist nurses as 6's, we run nurse led clinics, admit and discharge patients independently, have prescribing powers through masters level study, although our jobs are very different the experience that is required as a start point for the NP's and CNS's is degree level with an expectation for masters with supplementary prescribing and when it comes in independent prescribing. I would be dissapointed to find out that nurses with 18 months experience and no requirement for degree level could potentially be banded at the same level. Please don't misunderstand me, this is not devaluing the ward level nurses but the requirement for an E grade is much less that NP/CNS or even F grade senior staff nurse / sister for that matter and yet they are to be banded at the same level.
My other question would be that if your appeal is successful, are you and your fellow E grades prepared to be working at junior sister level as your F grades are now because the KSF expectations for a band 6 nurse will be the same so it will mean more work and responsibility for you.
When you appeal try to use wording from the band 6 nurse profile to justify your appeal, there are national profiles that you will have been matched against find the band 6 and use similar wording to establish that you are working at that level.
It would seem that to have so many equivelent level nurses banded differently there could be differences in the job descriptions, it would be worth having a look at those that had 6's to see what was in there.
Good luck with your appeal, I hope you have supportive managment to help you through this period.

Thanks for your reply - OK, let me go through your list.

We didn't all signed off the job description as not all agreed but the majority did just sign as pushed to do so.

The 'G' came out as a 7

The 'F' came out as a 6

I specialise in urology but we are also take for medical outliers. I take charge of the ward coordinating intakes and discharges, dealing with consultants, off duty issues, bed management, complaints etc. The only thing that the F's do that we don't is some admin. The G and F's also think that we have been banded unfairly.

Our main bugbear is that the medical, day surgery, trauma ward E's have been banded 6 but we seem to have been .... how shall I put it .... not recognised for the work that we do.

We have a meeting with management tomorrow - should be interesting - thanks for your reply. All new nurses are now trained to degree level in Wales.