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- Quote from tralalaRNI always respect the integrity of someone's argument a bit less when they come out with the suggestion that perhaps one's education isn't up to snuff --?. .Most preemies are born having nothing to do with crack cocaine. May want to look up all the reasons for prematurity too.
I respect the integrity of their argument less still when they pull a minor point out of the whole, alter it just a bit, and respond to that rather than the key issues at hand.
I respect your intelligence enough not to rehash what those more important points are, but perhaps another read through will make them a little clearer.
As far "Mark Lee Hunter" well -- I have no idea who he is and apparently very few others know either. From what I could surmise he is a self-proclaimed "investigative journalist" and hawks his videos and seminars on youtube.
I don't get my credible information from sources like that, just as I don't believe Alex Jones or Orly Tait when they make claims.
- No idea who Orly or Alex are. There are numerous other sources listed, so it's certainly up to you as to whether or not you'd like to dig further. Dr. William Silverman is considered to be "The Father of Neonatology." Helen Harrison wrote the original "Premature Baby Book" - considered by many to be the bible on prematurity. The Miller case was of parents in Texas who asked that their 23 weeker not be resuscitated - hospital ignored them and did anyway. Messenger case in Michigan - Dr. who removed his own infant from life support charged with manslaughter - later acquitted.
- TralalaRN - it looks like you've never worked as an NICU nurse or in a pediatric hospital, that you are a preemie mom yourself, and that you have a long-standing vendetta about this Baby Doe Law.
You may hint that your knowledge is vastly superior, but I have worked both in the NICU, and at CHLA in every dept there. I only mention it because of your remark suggesting that perhaps I should look up the causes of premature birth.
However, I see that there is a personal involvement here, I do not want to disrespect you, or your political views. I'll take a breather now - I will think about it overnight. I am not a knee-jerk republican supporter. I just have heard Reagan blamed for so many things that either were passed into law before he got there (as in deregulating state mental hospitals) or were mistakes with both parties having a hand in it.
Best to you.
- Yep - you're right. Preemie mom. Vendetta - not so much. Big interest in neonatal ethics after seeing many families affected. Sat on a few national parent/professional boards. Spoken at conferences on neonatal issues. Quite a bit of advocacy. No never worked in neonatal, was asked, refused. Don't think I could live with it after experiencing it first hand. My spot in nursing is neonatal "mop up" - working with the kiddos and families who are in it for the long haul.
- May 13, '11 by JaredRNHahahaha... I love how my assinine comment created the best discussion on neonatal ethics I have seen yet. All I did was bleep a cussword at an ex president, and the context just spewed out. I'm really fortunate to be part of a community of such smart nurses and also laughing my ass off.
- LOL - you're welcome! Glad you started it! T
- Quote from JaredRNOh dearie me - and you're a new member (or new poster) as well! Glad I didn't scare you away.Hahahaha... I love how my assinine comment created the best discussion on neonatal ethics I have seen yet. All I did was bleep a cussword at an ex president, and the context just spewed out. I'm really fortunate to be part of a community of such smart nurses and also laughing my ass off.
Tralala.- as a result of working at Children's Hospital and taking care of many children who had medical issues, and for whom we were their only family, the issue is extremely emotional for me as well. I might even say that some of the stuff I saw happen continue to haunt me terribly to this day.
If I ever write a Nurse's Article I have a semi-working title called "The Crib In the Corner". Many babies inhabited the crib in the corner. Many were just a bit too sick to send to long-term rehab centers and had no family either willing or capable enough to care for them at home. When they died, it tore me up inside. I know we aren't supposed to "get emotionally involved" but there were just some that you couldn't help it .
It isn't exactly the same thing as resuscitating babies over and over - I guess I just happened to be more familiar with parents who push the medical community to futile interventions when the babies quality of life will be so compromised - well you know what I am talking about.
It irritates the **** out of me that we effectively are told to "shut up" when we want to talk about the ethics of prolonging life at either end of the cycle of life with hysterical cries of "death panels!!". Nobody wants to push back at that type of idiocy.
- I agree with you entirely.
One of the presentations I gave a few years ago - wish I still had the powerpoint presentation, as it was pretty awesome. .it was right when that 21ish weeker was being "saved" in FL, I believe. . Anyway, it was to a group of nurses, and one of them said "well, it's the PARENTS who want us to do everything!" I said - "why do you suppose that is?" She couldn't really answer. I asked her if it might be because parents ONLY see the miracle baby stories. These stories are very impactful. Neonatal units/hospital PR depts are famous for pumping those out - especially around Mother's Day, Christmas. .it's the only side most people ever really see. Then it's the March of Dimes - miracle poster kids who are pretty much all former preemies, then it's The Children's Miracle Network Telethon. If they saw what I saw, parents would not be asking that everything be done. In fact, they'd run for the hills and deliver in some cabin in the woods or their bathroom floor. They would be so terrified.
A few years ago, one of the families I got to know had 2 surviving triplets. Both of the girls had some issues, but it wasn't really too apparent at first. They were asked to be involved in the Children's Miracle Network Telethon. . .until both of the girls needed walkers, braces and thick glasses. All of a sudden - cancelled. So. .here again, it's a very carefully crafted white-washed version of prematurity that is being presented to the public. So when the public goes into preterm labor. .of course they will probably want everything done.
Good discussion. Glad you stayed and poked me with that sharp stick of yours Best - T
- May 13, '11 by JaredRN[quote=nursel56;5118837]Oh dearie me - and you're a new member (or new poster) as well! Glad I didn't scare you away.
Well I'll have you know I'm also a Ped's ICU nurse, local hospital too, not too far from Children's LA. I do have a lot of respect for those CHLA nurses, they really have some of the best stories, even the sad ones. It's part of why I feel Peds nurses to me are special. I haven't been doing this very long, but it doesnt take very long to become disturbed with the realities of working with vulernable children, and not understanding why sometimes. Those MRCP'ers, they have some of the loveliest familes, and some awful ones too, and you know what I'm talking about. But it's not something that can be put on a poster or a TV commercial. The general public will never understand it. Unless you are someone personally touched by premature child that grows up disabled you never know what some people go through, or what even the medical staff or nurses go through. It's just not plain talked about in any smart kind of way, and I'm glad, feelings aside you're able to not only embrace the emotional highs and lows, but realizing hey we're all nurses here and we all know what we're talking about. How we think, how we see human life, isn't much different from eachother, we're special cause we see this side of life that not many people get to witness.
My comment about Regan, was more fustration and sarcasm than anything, it wasn't meant to be thoughful. It was a little angry because I don't want to see premature babies live and die only to suffer in this world for a short time. You can't blame Regan anymore you can blame Bush for 9/11. I'm glad the conversation got elevated a little more anyway, not everyone thinks like we do.
- Here here. . .
I've got a little personal library of articles that I've been gathering for some time now . .although this one is a tad dated, I thought it was very interesting. Again, something no one really talks about. . it's interesting and since you are both in the hospital trenches, 'thought you'd find it interesting as well.