Anyone graduated from a clinical nurse leader program?

Trillion · Apr 10, 2011

I don't have an answer, sorry, but just dropping in to say I'm in the same boat. I'm applying to the CNL program at USF ($70K!) in October but am trying to make sure I'm weighing all my options carefully before getting this deeply in debt. I've been a massage therapist and massage therapy instructor since '98, specializing in pre/peri natal massage and labor suppport and have also done some work w/ hospices in palliative care, but no experience in the nursing field. I agree with you, you will most likely be working as an RN (in Norther Cal this means med-surg or ER, where the need is greatest) prior to working in the CNL capacity. However, a friend of mine who just graduated is now a case manager at SF General. Case management doesn't sound as interesting to me as patient care, though, so I found the post to be very informative from the woman who was an RN for 21 years who now regrets doing the CNL program. Keep posting any findings. The feedback is really helpful.

newmusic · Apr 10, 2011

I don't have an answer, sorry, but just dropping in to say I'm in the same boat. I'm applying to the CNL program at USF ($70K!) in October but am trying to make sure I'm weighing all my options carefully before getting this deeply in debt. I've been a massage therapist and massage therapy instructor since '98, specializing in pre/peri natal massage and labor suppport and have also done some work w/ hospices in palliative care, but no experience in the nursing field. I agree with you, you will most likely be working as an RN (in Norther Cal this means med-surg or ER, where the need is greatest) prior to working in the CNL capacity. However, a friend of mine who just graduated is now a case manager at SF General. Case management doesn't sound as interesting to me as patient care, though, so I found the post to be very informative from the woman who was an RN for 21 years who now regrets doing the CNL program. Keep posting any findings. The feedback is really helpful.

I realize that CNL is an example of an accelerate route which also offers no summer externship, but am wondering if the Masters earned ups the chances of landing a job after graduation?

Music in My Heart · Apr 10, 2011

I was told by admissions director at USF that all California hospitals will be required to have a CNL in each unit within the next 2 years.

I think the admissions director at USF is feeding you a line of self-serving BS.

Music in My Heart · Apr 10, 2011

I realize that CNL is an example of an accelerate route which also offers no summer externship, but am wondering if the Masters earned ups the chances of landing a job after graduation?

It really depends on the specific institution. In many cases, the answer is a definitive "NO." It turns out, for some odd reason, that many nurses consider the training with the least formalized education to be the best. That is, that the diploma programs produce the best new nurses followed in decreasing order by ASN then BSN and last (and least) MSN.

To Mr./Ms. Trillion I would say, don't spend the cash on USF. Bide your time and go through SF City, College of Marin, etc and earn your ASN.

Music in My Heart · Apr 10, 2011

I am considering an entry-level masters without any prior nursing experience for one reason: better chance of getting hired once entering the job market. Sure, many employers may not have a "CNL position" just yet, but since most CNLs begin as staff nurses anyway, would they beat out a non-experienced BSN graduate in a competitive job market because they have that Masters?

No, simply not true. New grads are primarily hired based on their existing connection to an institution (through clinicals or personal relationships), not their degrees.

Trillion · Apr 10, 2011

Thanks for the advice, Song in Heart. (I'm female, btw). One of the main reasons I'm considering USF is that it is a meritocracy, not a lottery. I'm 45, with a near 4.0GPA (sorry, I'm bragging, but hell, I worked for it!) If I were in my 20's I'd consider applying year after year in the lottery systems for an RN here. I know many who are in the loop and I don't care to join them. The other reason is to take advantage of having an undergrad degree , thereby presumably increasing my hire-ability with the advanced (CNL) degree. That being said, I value your advice. I want lots of patient contact and the trials and rewards that entails. When I think of "nursing" that's what my mind sees- directly helping people and getting my (gloved) hands dirty. You are not the first nurse to encourage me to go the ASN route. I will look into it. Thanks again. BTW, my sister is a nurse and she thinks I'm nuts to get into this field so I'm always seeking encouragement. It's disappointing to me that she doesn't think I'm doing the right thing, even though we're 45 and 55. I still seek her approval!

Music in My Heart · Apr 10, 2011

Thanks for the advice, Song in Heart. (I'm female, btw). One of the main reasons I'm considering USF is that it is a meritocracy, not a lottery. I'm 45, with a near 4.0GPA (sorry, I'm bragging, but hell, I worked for it!) If I were in my 20's I'd consider applying year after year in the lottery systems for an RN here. I know many who are in the loop and I don't care to join them. The other reason is to take advantage of having an undergrad degree , thereby presumably increasing my hire-ability with the advanced (CNL) degree. That being said, I value your advice. I want lots of patient contact and the trials and rewards that entails. When I think of "nursing" that's what my mind sees- directly helping people and getting my (gloved) hands dirty. You are not the first nurse to encourage me to go the ASN route. I will look into it. Thanks again. BTW, my sister is a nurse and she thinks I'm nuts to get into this field so I'm always seeking encouragement. It's disappointing to me that she doesn't think I'm doing the right thing, even though we're 45 and 55. I still seek her approval!

If it matters to your assessment of my opinion, I also entered nursing school with existing degrees in my mid-40's and I also chose a CNL program for pretty much the same reasons that you're considering it.

Trillion · Apr 10, 2011

Yours is precisely the kind of opinion I need! Do you wish you hadn't gone for the CNL program? Did you go into the program after prior experience in nursing?

Do you work as a CNL now? I'm gonna go ahead and ply you for details, if you don't mind indulging me!

UVA Grad Nursing · Apr 11, 2011

I'd like to add some advice to Trillion too.

I agree with Song that most new grads find their positions through their own or institutional contacts (through places where you did clinicals, where you may have ad a summer internship, etc). But the reputation of a school can also be important if you are looking for a position outside of your immediate community. Just as with law schools and MBA schools, attending a school with a national profile/reputation can help if you are looking for jobs outside of your town/state.

We have a very robust CNL program at my institution (ADN-entry, BSN-entry, and Direct Entry (for non-nurses). Our entry-level MSN program has excellent outcomes (NCLEX passrate is 100% for the past two year, grads are employed at top hospitals across the country). Much of this is the way in which the clinical are conducted - 1000 precepted hours conducted 1:1 with experienced nurses. There are no traditional group clinicals at all in the program. These students have more total clinical hours than any ADN or BSN program in the state.

All Veterans Administration hospitals are supposed to have CNLs in all units by 2013. It is possible that the folks at USF mis-spoke and meant to say that all V.A. Hospitals were mandating CNLs (not all C.A. hospitals were requiring this).

Last year over 80% of our Direct Entry grads had jobs by the time of graduation; the percentage of our BSN grads was about 65% at the same time. This was much higher that the local community college (which had about 10% with job offers at graduation) Approximately 50% of the ASN grads were still unemployed 4 months after graduation. Employment does vary from place to place and all 20 of the EL Masters CNL programs will have different stories.

Music in My Heart · Apr 11, 2011

Yours is precisely the kind of opinion I need! Do you wish you hadn't gone for the CNL program? Did you go into the program after prior experience in nursing?
Do you work as a CNL now? I'm gonna go ahead and ply you for details, if you don't mind indulging me!

I do not regret the route that I chose because (a) it was the fastest way through (as you said, none of this lottery/waiting list nonsense), (b) it was at a public university which, while much costlier than a community college, was much (much, much) cheaper than a program like USF's, and © I did earn a MS degree which, after I attain sufficient experience, will qualify me to work as a clinical instructor or adjunct faculty.

I also think that the CNL curriculum provides a knowledge base and mindset which is sorely needed in nursing. In my case, much of the material was similar to subjects from my process engineering background but many of my classmates had never been exposed to systems-level and predictive analysis.

I am hoping that when the time comes for me to find another job that my graduate degree and CNL certification will count for something. We do have a local VA hospital who does hire CNLs but they require 5 years of nursing experience.

I do not presently work as a CNL and, in fact, I'd probably not choose to barring a dearth of alternate options though perhaps my opinion will change as I get older.

I did not enter the CNL with any health care or nursing experience (save my CNA which I earned just prior to beginning the program).

Nearly two years out from graduation and most of my classmates have found work though not all of them (and not all of them in acute-care facilities).

Acknowledging the evident bias against the DEMSN programs, I will tell you that myself and most of my classmate were very well received in the clinical units where we studied. We often heard comments like, "Really, you're first-semester nursing students???" That may be more due to the fact that we tended to be older and more accomplished than the students from the local ASN and BSN programs, though.

All in all, I don't regret the path that I chose in order to get into nursing but I think I might feel differently if I had coughed up $70,000 to go to school.

I have mixed feelings about having chosen to enter the nursing profession in favor of alternate options which I didn't pursue and which are no longer available to me.

Trillion · Apr 11, 2011

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this detailed response. The sticky situation, being in our mid-forties, is the knowledge that dedicating 2 years of education and many more years gaining experience in a singular field is hopefully what

one is ready, willing and wanting to do. It's a gamble. But gambling makes life interesting. I, too, see myself back in education later on. I spent almost 10 years teaching in vocational colleges and loved just about every second of it. And as you did, am considering becoming a CNA this summer. As a massage therapist, I always wanted "difficult" clients and challenging cases. I love assisting labor and, on the opposite end of the spectrum, working w/ hospice care, helping patients feel as cared for as possible as they exit our world. I never feel queasy or disgusted by any of it, but find it fascinating, humbling and an honor to participate in. 70K is an awful lot of student loan to take on at age 45. And in truth, it would be a bit more than that including living expenses that I'd have to borrow for to partially cover. I'm lucky my husband has a good job, but I'd still need a bank to help us. Nursing is tough to get into in the Bay area but I really do feel a calling. It's just a matter of how/when. It seems there less options in the impacted situation here in SF than in other parts of the country but relocating is not an option. Again, thank you so much for participating in this discussion.

Trillion · Apr 11, 2011

Oh, and I'm glad you mentioned predictive analysis. I am currently taking Statistics and can't believe how much I love it. I'd be thrilled to be able to put it into practice.