The Circumcision Discussion - page 97

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. Visit  Soyrizo profile page
    0
    The research on the benefits of circ'ing is questionable at best.

    We didn't circ our son, and have had no issues. I respect other people's decisions, though.
  2. Visit  Elvish profile page
    3
    Bet if I took out my son's appendix as a newborn, I'd have reduced his chances of getting appendicitis to zero. All the same, we chose to leave it in.

    Same difference to me.
    Last edit by Elvish on Aug 2, '09
    brillohead, morte, and GooeyRN like this.
  3. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from morte
    u
    please site your sources....if you have been reading this thread all the way thru, you would know that most of these stats have been proven very ....hmm ephemeral.....exagerated, misstated....etc
    The links ARE my sources...and they are from the CDC and well recognized professional medical journals with CURRENT RESEARCH.

    I take it you never bothered clicking any of the links.

    I graduated in May and the same information appeared in our textbooks as well as the teaching literature we give to parents at my hospital who inquire about circumcision.
  4. Visit  2curlygirls profile page
    2
    Babylady, if you just graduated, i'm guessing you haven't had much opportunity to see what botched circ's look like. Or when they won't stop bleeding. Or when they get infected.

    I, unfortunately, have seen my share. And for what? The theoretical prevention of a problem that *may* happen years down the road? I don't make any OTHER decisions using that kind of logic. It makes my head spin that anyone would use it for cutting off part of their son!!!
    JanisM and morte like this.
  5. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    1
    Quote from 2curlygirls
    Babylady, if you just graduated, i'm guessing you haven't had much opportunity to see what botched circ's look like. Or when they won't stop bleeding. Or when they get infected.

    I, unfortunately, have seen my share. And for what? The theoretical prevention of a problem that *may* happen years down the road? I don't make any OTHER decisions using that kind of logic. It makes my head spin that anyone would use it for cutting off part of their son!!!
    A circumcision is a surgical procedure.

    ANY SURGICAL PROCEDURE, runs the risk of being "botched".

    ANY of them.

    That is a risk...along with EVERY surgery that is performed, EVERY day in the USA.

    When a parent asks me for information on circumcision, as a healthcare professional, my job is to give them FACTUAL, RESEARCH BASED pro's and con's and let THEM make the decision.

    I don't influence them with scare tactics.

    I tell them the procedure is elective.

    I tell them it is not medically necessary.

    I tell them that there is a risk to permanent damage to the penis from the procedure, infection that can have a major impact on urination, appearance, and future sexual performance.

    I also tell them that the majority of the procedures are performed with few or not problems...which is a fact.

    I also tell them that current, fact-based research shows that there can be a lower chance of their son contracting HPV or HIV in the future.

    If you are sharing any information with parents that is based on your personal opinion, and not based on fact, then you are doing your patients a grave disservice.

    I haven't seen a botched circumcision...you are right....I have personally watched a 7-year old and a 3-year old have to have a MEDICALLY NECESSARY circumcisions due to major infections that occurred in the foreskin.

    Let me tell you....it wasn't pretty and it was fairly traumatizing to both boys.
    lamazeteacher likes this.
  6. Visit  brillohead profile page
    0
    Quote from BabyLady
    When a parent asks me for information on circumcision, as a healthcare professional, my job is to give them FACTUAL, RESEARCH BASED pro's and con's and let THEM make the decision.
    ...
    I also tell them that current, fact-based research shows that there can be a lower chance of their son contracting HPV or HIV in the future.
    Do you also tell them that this is only applicable if they live in high-disease areas of Africa where safe-sex practices aren't used and where the factual research was done? After all, it's your job to give them FACTUAL information, right???
  7. Visit  2curlygirls profile page
    0
    Quote from BabyLady
    A circumcision is a surgical procedure.

    ANY SURGICAL PROCEDURE, runs the risk of being "botched".

    ANY of them.

    That is a risk...along with EVERY surgery that is performed, EVERY day in the USA.

    When a parent asks me for information on circumcision, as a healthcare professional, my job is to give them FACTUAL, RESEARCH BASED pro's and con's and let THEM make the decision.

    I don't influence them with scare tactics.

    I tell them the procedure is elective.

    I tell them it is not medically necessary.

    I tell them that there is a risk to permanent damage to the penis from the procedure, infection that can have a major impact on urination, appearance, and future sexual performance.

    I also tell them that the majority of the procedures are performed with few or not problems...which is a fact.

    I also tell them that current, fact-based research shows that there can be a lower chance of their son contracting HPV or HIV in the future.

    If you are sharing any information with parents that is based on your personal opinion, and not based on fact, then you are doing your patients a grave disservice.

    I haven't seen a botched circumcision...you are right....I have personally watched a 7-year old and a 3-year old have to have a MEDICALLY NECESSARY circumcisions due to major infections that occurred in the foreskin.

    Let me tell you....it wasn't pretty and it was fairly traumatizing to both boys.
    So if there's a *risk* of it being botched. Why take that risk? You would never have to put epi on an uncirced penis to stop it from bleeding.


    So we traumatize them preemptively? While they're learning to breastfeed? And bond with their parents? Welcome to the world!!

    And, it's my opinion that I would be doing a greater disservice to the INFANTS I am charged with caring for if I promoted this unnecessary procedure.
    Last edit by 2curlygirls on Aug 3, '09
  8. Visit  Elvish profile page
    3
    The problem here is that as soon as some child develops a problem with his foreskin, the solution is circumcision. Of course it is going to be traumatic in an older child, but just because he won't remember it as a newborn doesn't mean it's better to do it then. In countries where circ is not routinely practiced, the incidence of people having to be circed for foreskin problems is extremely low. Why? Because practitioners there know how to work with a foreskin. We here, unfortunately, do not. That's why you see older kids 'having' to get circed.

    ETA - the actual number of intact men that end up 'having' to get circumcised as adults in the US is about 1 in 100. So we're circing, on average, 99 newborns who otherwise would have no problems, to save one person who *might* have problems that truly need fixing with circumcision.

    Regarding HIV and HPV prevention - cover it up with a condom. Period. We are giving people too much false security by preaching HIV prevention by circumcision.

    My intact brother and I were discussing this the other day and I was surprised to find his feelings about circumcision were as strong as mine, if not stronger.
    Last edit by Elvish on Aug 3, '09
    JanisM, CEG, and okchug like this.
  9. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from brillohead
    Do you also tell them that this is only applicable if they live in high-disease areas of Africa where safe-sex practices aren't used and where the factual research was done? After all, it's your job to give them FACTUAL information, right???
    Quote your source on that.

    Because I guarantee, it doesn't exist.

    It doesn't even make common sense...so you really think a virus knows where it lives?

    Surely you don't think that unsafe sex ONLY takes place in Africa and not in any industrialized nation?
  10. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from 2curlygirls
    So if there's a *risk* of it being botched. Why take that risk? You would never have to put epi on an uncirced penis to stop it from bleeding.


    So we traumatize them preemptively? While they're learning to breastfeed? And bond with their parents? Welcome to the world!!

    And, it's my opinion that I would be doing a greater disservice to the INFANTS I am charged with caring for if I promoted this unnecessary procedure.
    Because that isn't for me to decide.

    As a healthcare professional, it isn't my job to influence.

    You give the parents an OBJECTIVE list of pros and cons and you SUPPORT the decision either way.

    If you have a personal issue with circumcision...then you should not be participating in the procedure, on any level.
  11. Visit  BabyLady profile page
    0
    Quote from Elvish
    Regarding HIV and HPV prevention - cover it up with a condom. Period. We are giving people too much false security by preaching HIV prevention by circumcision..
    Hang on...that isn't what I said....and it's not a true statement.

    You cannot prevent HIV or HPV by circumcision alone and it would be foolish for anyone to think that you could.

    Telling a parent that the chances are REDUCED versus PREVENTED is not the same thing.

    Using a condom doesn't guarantee that you won't get an STD either....surely you don't tell patients that do you???? You also are not considering the fact that not everyone in the world is sexually faithful...if your partner cheats on you, and you think you are in a monogomous relationship...not much you can do about it.

    I personally know of someone that is HIV positive because their partner cheated on them, and it was a proven source of the infection.
  12. Visit  morte profile page
    1
    Quote from BabyLady
    Quote your source on that.

    Because I guarantee, it doesn't exist.

    It doesn't even make common sense...so you really think a virus knows where it lives?

    Surely you don't think that unsafe sex ONLY takes place in Africa and not in any industrialized nation?
    it is earlier in the thread, that is where the study was done, in africa
    brillohead likes this.
  13. Visit  Elvish profile page
    3
    Quote from BabyLady
    You cannot prevent HIV or HPV by circumcision alone and it would be foolish for anyone to think that you could.

    Telling a parent that the chances are REDUCED versus PREVENTED is not the same thing.
    What I see is this: as soon as you mention to parents about 'reducing the chances of HIV/HPV transmission', what they hear is 'if we have him circumcised, he won't get HIV.' That is what I'm referring to. Rightly or wrongly, it is what many parents in my daily practice say. IF it does indeed reduce transmission chances (which I think has been talked about ad nauseum in this thread, and the studies were flawed), there's still no need to circumcise a newborn baby.

    Using a condom doesn't guarantee that you won't get an STD either....surely you don't tell patients that do you???? You also are not considering the fact that not everyone in the world is sexually faithful...if your partner cheats on you, and you think you are in a monogomous relationship...not much you can do about it.
    Using a condom doesn't *guarantee* that you won't get an STD either - but it is about as effective as anything out there, and surely is more effective than circumcision at reducing HIV transmission. I am well aware of the fact that not everybody is faithful to their partner; however, why is the incidence of HIV transmission higher in the circ-happy US than in, say, European countries, where the circ rate is extremely low or nonexistent outside Jewish or Muslim communities?

    I stil haven't heard anyone mention doing appys on newborn babies because it will virtually eliminate their chances of getting appendicitis later on...
    Last edit by Elvish on Aug 4, '09
    JanisM, brillohead, and morte like this.

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