The Circumcision Discussion - page 94

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. Visit  brillohead} profile page
    2
    Along these same lines, I personally feel it is inappropriate for parents to pierce the ears of their infant daughter.

    I got my ears pierced on my 10th birthday, after having begged my mother for a couple of years at that point. (She got hers done on the same day, which was also her own birthday... she was 42yo and had always used clip-on earrings up to that point.)

    Piercing is an elective procedure (granted, it is a huge cultural thing in some tribes in remote regions, but for people likely to read this forum on the internet, it is not a "religious/ethnic" rite). There is danger of actual permanent harm, particularly with the way MRSA has been spreading into the community. There is a continued danger should the infant remove a stud and swallow it or aspirate it. There is a danger of having the earring ripped out while at play or in sports as she ages.

    Yes, it's the parents' "right" to have their daughter's ears pierced, and a significant enough portion of the population will have it done so that a baby girl with pierced ears is not seen as "weird" or "wrong" and she's not likely to get ridiculed over it (which I don't even buy that excuse regarding circumcision.... my son's been participating in team sports for five years now and it's never been brought up to him).

    But just because the parent has the "right" to pierce the baby's ears, does that make it appropriate to do so?

    What if the baby got an infection?

    What if the baby removed an earring and poked her eyeball with it? or swallowed it? or aspirated it?

    What if a playmate grabbed onto an earring and ripped it right through her earlobe?

    What if the baby grows up and decides that she doesn't want pierced ears? Yes, she can let her holes grow closed, but she'll still have a scar and/or a "dent" in each lobe afterward.

    There is no medical reason to have the ears pierced, and there are quite a few things that can go wrong if you have the ears pierced. If a parent were to ask my opinion, I would point out all of these points, but then it would be my duty to step aside and let them make the decision. I have to let it go... it's not my baby, and I'm not going to have to answer to the baby when she's all grown up and upset that this was done to her when she didn't want it done (or something bad happened as a result).

    I look at circumcision and ear-piercing as two sides of the same coin. I don't have to own a penis to have an opinion about infant circumcision, and I don't have to have pierced or non-pierced ears to have an opinion about infant piercing.
    lamazeteacher and GooeyRN like this.
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  3. Visit  Joe12} profile page
    3
    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    Well, it certainly wasn't constructive to begin with... I was answered sarcastically. And I'm sorry if I was overly defensive, but this has been the norm for me since starting nursing school with most of the experienced nurses. I ask that if any of you come across nursing students, to teach them without making them feel like they are absolute idiots as many nurses do. Maybe some have forgotten, but it's very discouraging, and right now is the best time to mold us, remember we will be caring for you and your families one day too, so teach us the way you'd want a nurse to treat you as a patient.
    That certainly wasn't my intention.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    Abortion is a whole different subject I know, but I would like to know if their are some that don't agree with a parents choice to have the foreskin removed but do agree with a parents choice to completely REMOVE a child?
    That is a whole different topic that deserves its own thread. I am sure there may be people just like you said and I won't add more than that so the thread isn't derailed.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    I was never arguing the fact that it shouldn't be done, I was relating what I had learned, and I am receptive when you are constructive, to see both sides of the argument. I will however argue that it's a parent's choice and just as much that if it is the parent's choice to do so they should have the right to be (constructively) informed and able to make that decision without being judged.


    This is probably where we differ. I don't believe parents should be able to do this without a clear medical reason. To put it another way I don't believe my parents had the right to do that to me. Fortunately for me, they were very forward thinking on this issue at a time when that wasn't too common, in the US.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    I cried when my children received injections and even asked if it hurt the baby to have the umbilical cord cut with my first child and for this reason MY son was not circumsized... suprised? It was a huge argument that actually ended a relationship (petty? I thought so), but still my choice.


    That is hard to see; I agree, it can be difficult to see a child hurt like that but, one can take solace in the fact that there is a reason that needs to be done. I am not surprised by the way and I want to give you a your son is a very lucky boy. It's a shame to hear about your relationship but that is a sign of just how strong this 'custom's' grip is on our society.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    However, my "brother-in-law" at that time confided he was uncircumsized and really wished his mother had circ'd him because he was teased unrelentlessly in highschool. I simply debate that it is a parent's choice and we shouldn't make them feel bad about it.
    I am sorry to hear that, it certainly hasn't been anything close to my experience or anyone else I've spoken to about this. However, if it bothered him I would support his decision to get circumcised. Adults always have that option. Again, I don't see how this can legitimately be a parents choice. It goes against the most basic tenants of medical ethics that people in this field are expected to uphold.
  4. Visit  consult2} profile page
    0
    'My point about the money, is that compared to other inflated costs, it really isn't a significant amount - certainly not enough to make the cost a reason for doing/not doing circumcisions. OB has been known to bring much less profit to hospitals, and is considered a "loss leader" that will bring other business to most facilities - really!"

    Not for the OB's themselves--money made per hour, this is probably a significant portion of their income.

    http://www.circumstitions.com/Quotations.html#Wis

    "I have some good friends who are obstetricians outside the military, and they look
    at a foreskin and almost see a $125 price tag on it. Each one is that much money.
    Heck, if you do 10 a week, that's over $1,000 a week, and they don't take that much
    time."

    Dr.Thomas Wiswell quoted in the Boston Globe June 22, 1987

    And in the large picture, it STILL is a multi-billion dollar industry.
  5. Visit  xokissmekatexo} profile page
    4
    I have learned so much about both sides of this in the last couple days. I don't argue that it's inappropriate or unnecessary pain for an infant, in fact, I agree.
    There was a post earlier where someone said "Looks, circumcised looks better," and as terrible as that sounds, I don't think that she seriously meant that is why SHE agrees with it, but I think there was a post that said something about "why do people still do this," and sadly enough, people still do it becuase #1 it's been done for so long and #2 because some may think it "looks better." Not that either one of those excuses are GOOD reasons and are actually pretty appaling, but that's the harsh reality. I commend those of you that are trying to do something about it other than just debating on a blog (this is general and not directed at anyone, for clarification). If it weren't a parent's choice this wouldn't be an argument... however it is, I just don't think we should make parent's feel like they are terrible parent's for doing it when it is still an available option. In the mean time keep on trying to have your voices heard!
    jjjoy, dnp2004, JanisM, and 1 other like this.
  6. Visit  Joe12} profile page
    1
    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    I have learned so much about both sides of this in the last couple days. I don't argue that it's inappropriate or unnecessary pain for an infant, in fact, I agree.
    Thanks. It's hard to see it otherwise.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    There was a post earlier where someone said "Looks, circumcised looks better," and as terrible as that sounds, I don't think that she seriously meant that is why SHE agrees with it, but I think there was a post that said something about "why do people still do this," and sadly enough, people still do it becuase #1 it's been done for so long and #2 because some may think it "looks better." Not that either one of those excuses are GOOD reasons and are actually pretty appaling, but that's the harsh reality.
    And you've nailed it. Circumcision is a pernicious practice that is difficult to pry out of a society. It somehow prevents people from thinking rationally.

    Quote from xokissmekatexo
    I commend those of you that are trying to do something about it other than just debating on a blog (this is general and not directed at anyone, for clarification). If it weren't a parent's choice this wouldn't be an argument... however it is, I just don't think we should make parent's feel like they are terrible parent's for doing it when it is still an available option. In the mean time keep on trying to have your voices heard!
    [/quote]

    You could be one of those people. You've already taken the biggest step. You will soon be a nurse and in a position to educate parents. There are many other ways too. For example, in addition to the above, I write my state Medicaid offices to encourage them to discontinue funding. I donate money to groups working on education and elimination of circumcision. I don't think it's necessary or desirable to make parents feel bad but I can't dismiss parents who are educated and still do it. I just can't. And I think that people in the medical field should always know better and just simply not offer or perform it.
    xokissmekatexo likes this.
  7. Visit  Equinox_93} profile page
    3
    Quote from libnat
    Looks, circumcised looks better.
    ... Would you have your daughters labia removed? Some find that smaller or almost nonexistant labia "look better".
    JanisM, GooeyRN, and Smurfette752 like this.
  8. Visit  JanisM} profile page
    0
    Quote from Equinox_93
    ... Would you have your daughters labia removed? Some find that smaller or almost nonexistant labia "look better".
    I agree, and I find it quite disturbing that women feel they have to look like they have been airbrushed like pictures in men's mags rather than looking like a normal woman. Apparently these procedures are becoming more common. Are we really that shallow or insecure?
  9. Visit  2curlygirls} profile page
    7
    Why does this topic seemingly remove rationality? You don't surgically remove healthy, functional tissue for no reason. It's so simple.
    dnp2004, morte, Equinox_93, and 4 others like this.
  10. Visit  consult2} profile page
    1
    Quote from 2curlygirls
    Why does this topic seemingly remove rationality? You don't surgically remove healthy, functional tissue for no reason. It's so simple.
    You have summed it all up in this succinct and logical statement.
    Smurfette752 likes this.
  11. Visit  VizslaMom} profile page
    0
    Why does this topic seemingly remove rationality? You don't surgically remove healthy, functional tissue for no reason. It's so simple.
    How is the foreskin functionally necessary?

    IMO, if people could easily and reasonably have their tonsils & adenoids, gall bladder, and appendix removed at birth I'd opt for that too... saving potential issues in the longrun.
  12. Visit  brillohead} profile page
    4
    Quote from VizslaMom
    How is the foreskin functionally necessary?

    IMO, if people could easily and reasonably have their tonsils & adenoids, gall bladder, and appendix removed at birth I'd opt for that too... saving potential issues in the longrun.
    Earlobes aren't functionally necessary, but they are healthy tissue... should we chop them off at birth? When I was younger I had infections in my earlobes due to my ear piercing holes... should my parents have just lopped off my lobes to keep me from getting my ears pierced?

    At least a foreskin protects an extremely sensitive part of the male sex organ.... what "purpose" do male nipples serve? Should we remove those at birth, because a guy might get his nipples pierced later in life, causing an infection?

    There's a difference between "healthy tissue" and "functionally necessary". Amputees function in society while missing whole limbs, but I don't see anyone arguing the point that we should remove a kid's arm or leg for no reason, either. People can "function" without a colon or without a stomach, too.
    dnp2004, JanisM, Elvish, and 1 other like this.
  13. Visit  2curlygirls} profile page
    0
    Quote from VizslaMom
    How is the foreskin functionally necessary?

    IMO, if people could easily and reasonably have their tonsils & adenoids, gall bladder, and appendix removed at birth I'd opt for that too... saving potential issues in the longrun.
    Wow. Are you serious? That terrifies me.
  14. Visit  Joe12} profile page
    0
    Me too, are you kidding?


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