The Circumcision Discussion - page 39

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   moh_sir
    Just an interesting thought here, some people are saying that circumcision is forcing ones beliefs on another person (the little boy). So by that stand point should we not raise our children in our religion or make them go to church or tell them no to have pre marital sex? I just dont see the difference. Let people raise their kids as they wish vaccination circumcision religion whatever its all personal choice who are we to judge? Is it painful? I would guess so since they do scream but so is getting shots or somepeople spank their kids which also hurts... just my two cents but ill be circumcising my little boys, wouldnt have it any other way, why? my families personal preference
  2. by   KellNY
    moh_sir, please take a minute to read the thread-it's been addressed. At least this page, because it's addressed a few posts up, for goodness sake.

    I mean, for ccrying out loud, you're copying word for word another poster thoughts (without credit, mind you) that were already responded to.
  3. by   mstigerlily
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Not to mention young girls that had to be "cut open" on their wedding nights -
    This is a very specific form of genital mutilation called infibulation where the vagina is sewn shut. According the the WHO, this accounts for only 15%
    of FGM.

    Point take about the unsanitary conditions, however WHO lists Type I of FGM as "Type I - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris". Supposing we did it cleanly and neatly in a hospital setting. Suppose it was ONLY the prepuce (clitoral hood) and perhaps a labiaplasty to neaten things up - because the baby's father prefers his daughter's genitals to look pretty. Would that be ok then?

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
  4. by   ann945n
    Quote from moh_sir
    Just an interesting thought here, some people are saying that circumcision is forcing ones beliefs on another person (the little boy). So by that stand point should we not raise our children in our religion or make them go to church or tell them no to have pre marital sex? I just dont see the difference. Let people raise their kids as they wish vaccination circumcision religion whatever its all personal choice who are we to judge? Is it painful? I would guess so since they do scream but so is getting shots or somepeople spank their kids which also hurts... just my two cents but ill be circumcising my little boys, wouldnt have it any other way, why? my families personal preference
    lol great quote! :spin:
  5. by   caroladybelle
    Quote from mstigerlily
    This is a very specific form of genital mutilation called infibulation where the vagina is sewn shut. According the the WHO, this accounts for only 15%
    of FGM.

    Point take about the unsanitary conditions, however WHO lists Type I of FGM as "Type I - excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris". Supposing we did it cleanly and neatly in a hospital setting. Suppose it was ONLY the prepuce (clitoral hood) and perhaps a labiaplasty to neaten things up - because the baby's father prefers his daughter's genitals to look pretty. Would that be ok then?

    http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
    Would it be okay to cut away not only the foreskin but the complete tip of the penis, and leave a small hole for him to urinate through, because one thought it attractive? Or try to have a baby through? And how would that affect his rate of UTIs? Obviously, he could still urinate, and wouldn't eliminate all of nerve endings.

    Much of the infections have nothing to do about the "unsanitary" conditions under which the procedure is done....it has to do with the unsanitary conditions that the alteration creates by it's damage to bodily structures.

    Some of the cases that I refer to ARE done under sanitary conditions...a couple were done in the USA.

    One was on an alert, independant, oriented elderly female. She presented to the ER after a nonassociated fall injury (details omitted d/t HIPAA). Because of impending surgery, she needed to have a catheter placed.

    Several of the best on the floor were unable to cath, even using a nasal speculum to assess. She still had her clitoris. She still had most of her genitalia - just a small portion was "altered". However, this alteration was enough that she would never see a gyn. Pap smears had been too severely painful or unable to be performed. She had a long history of repeated UTIs, and some very serious problems with pylenephritis. And she could not void lying down, whatsoever due to damage from the repeated infections. We finally had to get a urologist who had seen a few cases - he placed a suprapubic.

    Said female reported that the problem came about after the birth of her only child. She had an episotomy, yet tore anyway - this was a result of a "sanitary hospital" repair done here in the USA. Since then, no matter how clean that she kept herself the infections came. Her spouse passed away early in their life and she never remarried as sex was too painful.

    Women already have a much higher rate of UTIs than men due to anatomical differences. Do we need to do something utterly useless to them to worsen this?

    As far as "tightening" things, here in the USA, there are MDs that specialize in altering labia (when people think it too large or bad looking), reconstructing hymens or "tightening" procedures. It is perfectly legal to do this to ADULT females. Said concerned father can pay for his grown child to do such things if he so wishes.

    I also have to wonder about what kind of man is that interested in his child's labia as far as assessing its prettiness. While assisting with hygiene is fine, assessing how other men will view it's attractiveness and making alterations based on his feelings for it, is more than a bit tacky.

    As far as men or women preferring circumcized men because they view them as more attractive, I consider it no more than any other bias or preference. Some men consider small breasted women to be terribly unsexy, though size of breasts have very little to do with quality of sexual experience. One could argue that small women have more sensitive breasts (less mass for the same amount of nerve endings), but that doesn't change the fact that many men still judge women on their breasts. Like hair color or body shape, all people have their biases, fair or misguided that they may be.

    It also goes to how you lead your life. If you jump in bed quickly before you know someone, what they look like is very important. If you learn to care about someone, know them and their great qualities, and love them, are you really going to reject them based on a labia or a foreskin? That says alot about those doing the choosing and how devoted they may be later in life, as well as their ability to roll with the changes that life with give you.
  6. by   mstigerlily
    Quote from caroladybelle
    Would it be okay to cut away not only the foreskin but the complete tip of the penis, and leave a small hole for him to urinate through, because one thought it attractive?
    Of course not. Cutting pieces of a person's genitals to maybe reduce their chances of UTIs is not a good strategy. We agree! We don't do this to our daughters, it's horrible and it doesn't make sense. But we cut OUR SONS.

    Quote from caroladybelle
    Women already have a much higher rate of UTIs than men due to anatomical differences. Do we need to do something utterly useless to them to worsen this?
    Yes, women have a much higher rate of UTI than even uncircumcised men do. So why bother cutting babies? We are in agreement again! We don't cut our daughters and if doctors told us it was necessary, we'd be horrified. But we cut OUR SONS.

    Quote from caroladybelle
    As far as "tightening" things, here in the USA, there are MDs that specialize in altering labia (when people think it too large or bad looking), reconstructing hymens or "tightening" procedures.
    We agree again! Right, it's perfectly legal to do to adult females and that's when it should be done - as an adult and as the women's choice. If our husband, family, priest or neighbor suggested that we trim our daughter's genitals, we would be highly offended. But we cut OUR SONS.

    Quote from caroladybelle
    I also have to wonder about what kind of man is that interested in his child's labia as far as assessing its prettiness. While assisting with hygiene is fine, assessing how other men will view it's attractiveness and making alterations based on his feelings for it, is more than a bit tacky.
    Wow, I had thought we were on the opposite sides of the fence here but we are in agreement again. However, constantly I have seen, heard or read women say she got her son circumcised because "It looked nicer", "foreskins are disgusting" "it's dirty" or "I don't give oral sex to uncircumcised men" or "he will never get a girlfriend", etc. Happens all the time, even here on this thread. We'd probably get violent with our husbands if they suggested our daughter needed cosmetic genital surgery - why is he concerned about that kind of thing? But when asked about our son's genitals we curl our lip in disgust at the thought of his natural anatomy remaining as is. So we cut OUR SONS.

    Quote from caroladybelle
    As far as men or women preferring circumcized men because they view them as more attractive, I consider it no more than any other bias or preference. Like hair color or body shape, all people have their biases, fair or misguided that they may be.
    Right! But if our husband prefers small labia, we may get a labiaplasty to please him - but don't trim our daughters at birth. But if we prefer circumcised, we cut OUR SONS.

    If our husband prefers large breasts, we ouselves may get a breast augmentation to please him - but we don't implant them in our daughters. However, if we prefer a circumcised penis, we cut OUR SONS.

    If we, as women, want to avoid stds, we practice safe sex and teach our daughters to do the same. If we want to avoid yeast infections, we wear cotton underwear, limit long term antibiotic use, build our immune systems and high sugar diets. If we want to avoid utis, we avoid bubble baths, urinate after sex and wipe front to back. Still they are a necessary side effect of being female. If we want to avoid stds, hiv, yeast infections and utis IN OUR SONS - we circumcise them at birth.

    If we have female children, we don't give them cosmetic genital surgery to decrease their chances of disease. But in the name of prophylaxis, we CUT OUR SONS.

    No one sees how contradictory this is, how little sense this makes? This is a deeply ingrained cultural practice, that is all. People tell themselves they are somehow saving their sons from a life of locker room misery, ensuring their son's success with women is maximized and increasing their chances of good health, but the real reasons are deeply ingrained cultural, social and very personal sexual reasons and comfort with what is familiar to them. I think people get upset about this because they realize it doesn't really make sense, but they do it anyway.

    Yes, we all make decisions for our children, we raise them in our church (they can later leave the church or learn about others), we vaccinate them (extremely beneficial, and anyway vaccinations wear off but who would want them to?), we can even pierce their ears (they close up later if earrings are removed), none of these things are a permanent body alteration. They can never get their foreskin back, it doesn't grow back, they cannot change their mind, it doesn't wear off.

    Being born is no picnic - being squeezed for hours in a tiny tunnel. With our high intervention births they are subjected to all sorts of things: vacuum popoffs, surgical birth in the OR, eye ointments, baths, injections, blood draws. But again, necessary evils, at least in a hospital. But sometimes these, these male babies are only hours old when they are circumcised. What kind of associations does it make for this boy when he is taken from his mother, naked and strapped to a board and someone (usually a man with a deep voice) cuts his genitals? Then his is returned to his mother but with each urination (until his penis heals) reminds him of this event? What kind of deep set memories and associations does this make for him? I don't think it can be good.

    Yes, there is lots of other trauma, for preemies there is a long parade of intrusive interventions, for the sick babies, many surgeries. However, they are generally necessary, they are well medicated and/or comfortably sedated. And most of all, unless we are talking about hypospadias repair (or similar) they are not performed on their GENITALS, which, anyone must admit, is one of the single most important parts of a male's body from a very early age.

    Circumcising infant boys disturbs me deeply. And yet, I participate in them, in fact I participated in one today. This baby at least was two days old and nursing well. The pediatrician is actually a mohel and very skilled. If I was going to have a boy circumcised, this is the man I would choose to do it. The baby was very comfortable, the circumcision was very good. But I've seen so many that were not, but still I participate in them, I see them, I remember them, it's part of my job. Some of them are done by interns or new physicians who are training, somebody's boy has to get the first circumcision, right? Most parents aren't even there, the surgery is done by whoever is available, babies are lined up at 7am, done right after the other. This is surgery on your child's genitals, an elective surgery on his favorite body part, which will alter him permanently, cosmetically, sexually forever! But parents make this choice automatically without much forethought or research.

    So - I don't understand it, it just doesn't make sense. Boys can be cut in the name of religion, prophylaxis, good health and hygiene, social, cultural, sexual reasons. I do respect religious reasons BTW, I feel a lot better about the bris ceremony mohels perform at home - not in favor of, but I feel a lot better about it. But again girls cannot be cut for any reason and I think that if parents have an important religious reason to have their daughter ritually cut, they should have the opportunity. What if it was performed by a surgeon, in a hospital, in a sterile environment, where only the tiniest cut was made to draw blood on her clitoral hood. That way the parents could have a semblance of their religious ritual performed, a bow to their culture and traditions, in a safe, controlled and sterile environment. If you would not support this, but support routine newborn circumcision of males, you should ask yourself why. And the only answer is: baby boys and baby girls are not given the same rights and treated equally.
    Last edit by mstigerlily on Mar 12, '07
  7. by   caroladybelle
    And where did I ever reference that I thought it was okay to cut ANYONE?

    I personally do not care for any unnecessary cutting of ANYONE, adult or child. That includes tattoos, and piercings. I personally do not care for plastic surgery, unless reconstruct from illness/injury.

    I merely pointed out that what is commonly referred to as "female circumcision" is not remotely in the same class as male circumcision - that it is more analogous with removing the entire penis, due to damage to physical structures and loss of nerve endings.

    But as it stands, the word of the creator per the Bible is what gives religious sanction to this practice. Of course, the Bible also sanctioned slavery, and forcing unmarried women to marry their molestors.

    The practice of female mutilation/circumcision, is to my knowledge, in NO way sanctioned anywhere in the Koran. While its use in predominantly Muslim countries is often attributed to religion, it is clearly a cultural practice NOT religious.

    Again, I did not sanction ANY circumcision.
  8. by   GardenDove
    Female circumcision is purely an African cultural tradition that crosses religious divisions and is practiced by Muslims, Christians and Pagans. I don't think Muslims elsewhere practice this.
  9. by   mstigerlily
    Quote from caroladybelle
    And where did I ever reference that I thought it was okay to cut ANYONE? Again, I did not sanction ANY circumcision.
    I apologize if my words seemed to be directed solely at you. I just happened to be responding to your post in the beginning and then it just kind of took off from there. Of course I don't know how you feel about male circumcision, you never really stated either way. When I said "you" in my post it's meant as a generic "you" to any female reading my post. I am very passionate about this subject (if you couldn't tell). Thanks for your response.
  10. by   AirforceRN
    First off...long time reader, first time poster, pleased to meet you all.
    Obviously, I feel strongly about this issue or I wouldn't have joined and started posting. I'm uncirc'd...just to be clear. 28 years old, never had a problem.
    Just a few points:
    1) I have read a lot of "I knew a guy who was uncircumcised, got a horrible infection , he wished he had been" OF COURSE! If I had a horrible infection in my penis and was told circ. was the only cure I'm sure I would feel the same way. As it stands, never had an infection, never wished I had been. I've seen circ'd guys with infections too.

    2)I have also heard a lot of questions about anybody remembering it. Of course they don't. Come on, you're days old at the time. Remembering the pain isn't the issue, it's voluntarily putting somebody through it.

    3) I don't smell, I don't look ugly, I don't taste bad, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't go days without washing, I don't see the problem.

    4) If the majority of men weren't circ'd, the "aesthetic" issue would turn 180 degrees...it's all about what you are raised to believe isn't it? You ever see a foreskin in porn?

    5) How about pre-emptive mastectomies? I've seen more breast cancer than non circ'd penile infections...would that solve a lot of problems? (A little harsh I know)

    6) I have THOUSANDS of more nerve endings in my penis than the guys out there that are cut. It's not like the foreskin is just dead skin...it has feelings too! Funny, I don't seem to have a problem "lasting" because of it.

    Just my two cents....again, nice to meet you, I'm sure we'll get better aquainted in the future, hopefully in a not so hot topic.
    Damien
  11. by   GardenDove
    Quote from AirforceRN
    First off...long time reader, first time poster, pleased to meet you all.
    Obviously, I feel strongly about this issue or I wouldn't have joined and started posting. I'm uncirc'd...just to be clear. 28 years old, never had a problem.
    Just a few points:
    1) I have read a lot of "I knew a guy who was uncircumcised, got a horrible infection , he wished he had been" OF COURSE! If I had a horrible infection in my penis and was told circ. was the only cure I'm sure I would feel the same way. As it stands, never had an infection, never wished I had been. I've seen circ'd guys with infections too.

    2)I have also heard a lot of questions about anybody remembering it. Of course they don't. Come on, you're days old at the time. Remembering the pain isn't the issue, it's voluntarily putting somebody through it.

    3) I don't smell, I don't look ugly, I don't taste bad, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't go days without washing, I don't see the problem.

    4) If the majority of men weren't circ'd, the "aesthetic" issue would turn 180 degrees...it's all about what you are raised to believe isn't it? You ever see a foreskin in porn?

    5) How about pre-emptive mastectomies? I've seen more breast cancer than non circ'd penile infections...would that solve a lot of problems? (A little harsh I know)

    6) I have THOUSANDS of more nerve endings in my penis than the guys out there that are cut. It's not like the foreskin is just dead skin...it has feelings too! Funny, I don't seem to have a problem "lasting" because of it.

    Just my two cents....again, nice to meet you, I'm sure we'll get better aquainted in the future, hopefully in a not so hot topic.
    Damien
    Nice to meet you Damien. You give good imput and should post more often.
  12. by   ElvishDNP
    Quote from AirforceRN
    First off...long time reader, first time poster, pleased to meet you all.
    Obviously, I feel strongly about this issue or I wouldn't have joined and started posting. I'm uncirc'd...just to be clear. 28 years old, never had a problem.
    Just a few points:
    1) I have read a lot of "I knew a guy who was uncircumcised, got a horrible infection , he wished he had been" OF COURSE! If I had a horrible infection in my penis and was told circ. was the only cure I'm sure I would feel the same way. As it stands, never had an infection, never wished I had been. I've seen circ'd guys with infections too.

    2)I have also heard a lot of questions about anybody remembering it. Of course they don't. Come on, you're days old at the time. Remembering the pain isn't the issue, it's voluntarily putting somebody through it.

    3) I don't smell, I don't look ugly, I don't taste bad, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't go days without washing, I don't see the problem.

    4) If the majority of men weren't circ'd, the "aesthetic" issue would turn 180 degrees...it's all about what you are raised to believe isn't it? You ever see a foreskin in porn?

    5) How about pre-emptive mastectomies? I've seen more breast cancer than non circ'd penile infections...would that solve a lot of problems? (A little harsh I know)

    6) I have THOUSANDS of more nerve endings in my penis than the guys out there that are cut. It's not like the foreskin is just dead skin...it has feelings too! Funny, I don't seem to have a problem "lasting" because of it.

    Just my two cents....again, nice to meet you, I'm sure we'll get better aquainted in the future, hopefully in a not so hot topic.
    Damien
    Nice to hear some other perspective, Damien.
  13. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from ann945n
    Personally i think compairing circumcision with cutting off ones ears is compairing apples to chevrolets. So then are you against vaccinations? Since that is not reversible. And personally when someone says to you "get over it" i find that rude.
    Vaccinations do not permanently alter my physical structure, nor do they remove thousands of nerve endings. I am a male, and this is a very important part of my anatomy. If I had to choose between ears and foreskin, I'd prefer they had my ears removed.

    Quote from AirforceRN
    Obviously, I feel strongly about this issue or I wouldn't have joined and started posting. I'm uncirc'd...just to be clear. 28 years old, never had a problem.
    Just a few points:
    1) I have read a lot of "I knew a guy who was uncircumcised, got a horrible infection , he wished he had been" OF COURSE! If I had a horrible infection in my penis and was told circ. was the only cure I'm sure I would feel the same way. As it stands, never had an infection, never wished I had been. I've seen circ'd guys with infections too.

    2)I have also heard a lot of questions about anybody remembering it. Of course they don't. Come on, you're days old at the time. Remembering the pain isn't the issue, it's voluntarily putting somebody through it.

    3) I don't smell, I don't look ugly, I don't taste bad, I don't have unprotected sex, I don't go days without washing, I don't see the problem.

    4) If the majority of men weren't circ'd, the "aesthetic" issue would turn 180 degrees...it's all about what you are raised to believe isn't it? You ever see a foreskin in porn?

    5) How about pre-emptive mastectomies? I've seen more breast cancer than non circ'd penile infections...would that solve a lot of problems? (A little harsh I know)

    6) I have THOUSANDS of more nerve endings in my penis than the guys out there that are cut. It's not like the foreskin is just dead skin...it has feelings too! Funny, I don't seem to have a problem "lasting" because of it.

    Just my two cents....again, nice to meet you, I'm sure we'll get better aquainted in the future, hopefully in a not so hot topic.
    Damien
    Thank you Damien.

    I have very strong feelings about this as well. Finally, some validation....As the circumcised age, those thousands of nerve endings will be highly valued. And especially point #4 -- there would be no aesthetic issues if this practice stopped.

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