The Circumcision Discussion - page 112
I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My husband says yes, it's better... Read More
- 0Apr 8, '09 by CEGQuote from consult2Ahh, then thanks for the backup!"I think you are trying to argue with me, but please reread my post and notice that we are agreeing I was saying that I am surprised by the lower adult rates in countires where infact circ is not the norm simply due to the difference in raw number of people who could potentially be circed."
Not at all, I am agreeing with you--I am just just supporting your assertion with hard numbers..some need the numbers to reinforce the facts.
- 0Apr 9, '09 by UTVOL3Quote from ElvishHow did you get him to quit? (Peeing outside...)Hey...we're not loggers and we (well, they) still pee outside. Especially the little one. The 36yo, not so much.
Even now they have contests to see who can get to the bathroom the fastest and who can be done peeing first. But I digress.....
I'm glad we are having this discussion, especially with some new members aboard = new perspectives...though it can be passionate at times. I'm getting ready to do a project about it at work. I hypothesize that we're losing money since Medicaid & some insurances don't pay for it in our state, and I wonder just how many people are actually paying for it after the fact. I think it will be interesting to see.
I find your project idea really intriguing. This is something that has crossed my mind as well. Many anti-circ proponents make the claim "foreskins are big business" but come on. Seriously. It is not enough to keep even the old guard at my hospital doing them. They figure it is a waste of time and refer to the pediatrician. So it can't be that much that they get reimbursed. Does anyone know?
As some of you know I am on a somewhat "extended" maternity leave. Being home with my babies all day has given me loads of time to speculate on issues like this. You know, spend any time at all on a parenting board and the topic comes up.
Anyway, I am interested in knowing if the procedure is really still going on in hospitals (newborn nursery/NICU) without some type of anesthetic. (not counting sucrose on the paci.) I am really only interested in hearing 1st person accounts within say, the last 2 ys. Please no "well my 7 y/o..." or "my sister's cousin's friend is a nurse in the ER and she said..."
That kind of thing is what I am trying to address. You can PM me if you'd rather.
- 0Apr 10, '09 by consult2Well, with ~1,000,000 circumcisions a year at a average cost of $400 (excluding hospital costs and followup for botched procedures, we have 1/2 BILLION dollars.
This does not include the follow-up profits from the foreskin harvesting--biologicals, cosmetics, drug and cosmetic testing estimated at another 2 billion..there's big bucks in harvesting infant body parts.
Here are the latest stats I have on rates of pain relief used:
A recent retrospective study was performed at a top hospital in Chicago.
Publlshed October 11, 2004, by Peggy Peck, this study is titled "Analgesia Underused for Management of Circumcision Pain".
In this study, a researcher went back through 5 years (1999-2004) of hospital records and checked whether anesthetic use had been recorded.
Out of 108 circumcisions, only 8 were marked for anesthetic.
The researcher couldn't believe it, so they checked the pharmacy charts to see whether anesthetic had been ordered.
They found that anesthetic had been ordered from the pharmacy, for only 35%-40% of circumcisions.
An excerpt from the study:
Of 191 male infants identified in the review of 400 charts, "56% underwent circumcision," .....
All circumcisions were performed by obstetricians. "Dorsal penile block was used in seven infants and subcutaneous ring block was used in one infant,"...
....Another telling finding, he said, was that the medical charts indicated no discussion of circumcision pain management with parents.
If you want to view it instead of just taking my word for it, first you must register here:
Then click this link:
- 0Apr 11, '09 by UTVOL3Is the whole study there? I am wondering if they have an option to email the author.
Just wondering if they entertained the idea that the lidocaine might have been unit stock. If the documentation was poor enough that could very well make it look as if they hadn't sdone a block.
Thanks for the link!
NM. Just looked at it. Perhaps with some digging I could find the original article. I agree the results from one hospital could be misleading.
Oh, and I am in the process of trying to find this out too but I am just wondering exactly what the physician's charge of the 400$ you mentioned would be.Last edit by UTVOL3 on Apr 11, '09 : Reason: add
- 0Apr 11, '09 by firstyearstudentFrom the admitted limited experience I have with this (clinicals, two sons) the doctors I have dealt with advised AGAINST pain management for circumcision because it "can lead to complications."
Think about it, you have a patient who is strapped down and who can only complain by crying (isn't going to jump up and slap you) and isn't going to sue you. Also, the parents are totally uneducated about this and seldom are there to see what goes on.
Why would the doctor recommend pain medications? It's a (small) risk that there will be a side effect and it's just going to take more time to complete the procedure. It's not in their interest. Only doctors who are educated about the pain of circumcision and who really care about the infant's pain are going to recommend it.
And Mohels almost never use anesthesia. When we were considering a religious circumcision for our son, we had to look for a pediatrician who was also a Mohel and would come to our home and do the circ with pain meds. When the MD/Mohel found out the baby was older than two weeks she then declined, which I ended up being grateful for and my son is still intact at 8 years and husband (who is Jewish) no longer even cares if he is circumcised. We didn't even consider it with our second son.
- 0Apr 11, '09 by CEGQuote from AjaRN;3560157INot sure what you mean by this. Are you asking what the charge is for? In my area this is about what a physician charges for a circumcision. This is in addition to whatever the hospital charges for the setup, etc.Oh, and I am in the process of trying to find this out too but I am just wondering exactly what the physician's charge of the 400$ you mentioned would be.
- 0Apr 11, '09 by Joe12One thing I wanted to point out with regards to AjaRN's post. First, I think that the answer to her question is mixed, much like what firstyearstudent's post says. Some do some don't and many feel it increases the risk of complication as I believe something like Lidocaine can cause swelling which could increase complications. More importantly though, does the simply trying to make circumcision painless make it ethical? I could remove someone earlobes painlessly does that make it any more right?
These are kind of rhetorical questions, I don't expect answers but just hope some will ponder that.
- 0Apr 14, '09 by Belinda-walesQuote from Belinda-walesI am glad to say my boys have all their boby parts that they were born with one day the USA will wake up and the truth will be out the population (who I do not blaim) have been brain washed into circs because it makes money last year 4.1 million babies were born in the usa - say half were boys and 90% get circ @ 120$ approx a snip got work it out - circ has nothing to do with anything except the cash made from it. Every single year this money is made imagine the loss in revinue if circ stopped. The truth is it is a violation in the human rights of a child - but nothing is done about it.
And I will say it again - it has nothing to do with anything except money!