Healthcare is NOT a basic human right. - page 43

If one were to read the Constitution one would realize that the Constitution does not grant anyone freedoms, liberties, or rights. The Constitution only protects freedoms, liberties, and rights from... Read More

  1. Visit  msn10} profile page
    2
    I find it very interesting the number of people here and politicians who say that healthcare should be left up to the individual states. I find that interesting because I live in one of the few states that has tried this.
    You like Canada's system, but they leave it up to the provinces to decide HC management. Many of our states have more people in one state than the whole population of Canada, yet we should have one system? Notwithstanding the fact that the Canadian government is no longer prosecuting fee-for-service doctors who have opened their own clinics since the government can no longer take care of people in a timely matter for many of the services. You also pay for HC based on income. I work with two CRNA's from Canada and they came to this country (years ago) for better job opportunities. They believe that many of Canada's policies have created some very dependent citizens who do not need to work because of so many entitlements. I think our country has a bigger problem with entitlement mentality than even places in Europe and if we start giving and giving, no one will be there to make the money to pay for the services.
    CountyRat and toekneejo like this.
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  3. Visit  DoGoodThenGo} profile page
    3
    Have been watching a great BBC/PBS program "Call the Midwive" about young nurse/midwife in 1950's UK. The programme also brings light on the benefits given to all residents of that country by the newly formed NHS, especially as it pertains to women and children.

    Am reading some of the posts here and thinking about last nights episode where a young mother to be loses her baby and her life due to Eclampsia.

    In the 1950's it seems not much could be done for pre and eclampsia patients, but times have changed. So are we now to say just because a woman or her family cannot afford proper care during pregnancy, birth and after delivery she should just be left on her own?

    No wonder the United States despite being the most wealthy and powerful nation on earth as an infant mortality rate behind some third world countries.
    Sisyphus, Fiona59, and lindarn like this.
  4. Visit  Fiona59} profile page
    2
    Quote from toekneejo
    And not to be disrespectful at all, but I too am glad that you are Canadian! I am also glad that you have noticed one of the aspects of Americans that make me down right proud to stand beside my fellow Americans' and root them on "to be all they can be" while maintaining my own right to do so also.
    "be all they can be" you just paraphrased a Canadian Armed Forces recruiting slogan!



    Oh, and can any of the Americans explain to me why we have American tourists come north to see Banff, Jasper, Vancouver, Toronto and wind up in our hospitals for conditions that they knew they had? They have no travel insurance, so our systems picks up the cost.

    Just in the last year, in one hospital, I know of a detached retina surgery, a full term delivery, and kidney stone surgery. We won't mention the heart, gall bladders, and appis because most people don't plan it.

    One American I looked after happily told me that they came north and wanted to use our "free system" because they couldn't afford the surgery due to lack of health insurance! Every nurse that cared from heard the same smug, congratulatory speech.
    Last edit by Fiona59 on Oct 22, '12
    joanna73 and loriangel14 like this.
  5. Visit  Asystole RN} profile page
    0
    Quote from Fiona59
    "be all they can be" you just paraphrased a Canadian Armed Forces recruiting slogan!



    Oh, and can any of the Americans explain to me why we have American tourists come north to see Banff, Jasper, Vancouver, Toronto and wind up in our hospitals for conditions that they knew they had? They have no travel insurance, so our systems picks up the cost.

    Just in the last year, in one hospital, I know of a detached retina surgery, a full term delivery, and kidney stone surgery. We won't mention the heart, gall bladders, and appis because most people don't plan it.

    One American I looked after happily told me that they came north and wanted to use our "free system" because they couldn't afford the surgery due to lack of health insurance! Every nurse that cared from heard the same smug, congratulatory speech.
    Hell, I have great insurance and I would go to Canada to receive free medical care. Free is always better than low cost.
  6. Visit  Asystole RN} profile page
    1
    Quote from DoGoodThenGo
    Have been watching a great BBC/PBS program "Call the Midwive" about young nurse/midwife in 1950's UK. The programme also brings light on the benefits given to all residents of that country by the newly formed NHS, especially as it pertains to women and children.

    Am reading some of the posts here and thinking about last nights episode where a young mother to be loses her baby and her life due to Eclampsia.

    In the 1950's it seems not much could be done for pre and eclampsia patients, but times have changed. So are we now to say just because a woman or her family cannot afford proper care during pregnancy, birth and after delivery she should just be left on her own?

    No wonder the United States despite being the most wealthy and powerful nation on earth as an infant mortality rate behind some third world countries.
    Demographics have a small part to play in infant mortality. You cannot compare a nation a fraction, a very small fraction, the size of the United States with a homogeneous population to a very large heterogeneous population.

    My state is very conservative yet we provide for our own. We do provide perinatal care to the poor and even give special care to single mothers with children. It's unbelievable a state can manage it's own care...
    CountyRat likes this.
  7. Visit  Fiona59} profile page
    1
    Quote from Asystole RN
    Hell, I have great insurance and I would go to Canada to receive free medical care. Free is always better than low cost.
    But I thought you said that America provided superior care to our nasty universal system.

    Canadians are fed up of paying for healthcare tourists who go home and ignore the bills from our hospitals.
    loriangel14 likes this.
  8. Visit  Asystole RN} profile page
    2
    Quote from Fiona59
    But I thought you said that America provided superior care to our nasty universal system.

    Canadians are fed up of paying for healthcare tourists who go home and ignore the bills from our hospitals.
    Free has a quality of its own, especially since I would not even contribute in taxes to the cost.

    Canadians have nothing on Americans when it comes to footing the bill from medical tourism/illegal immigration. Especially states like Arizona, Texas, California, New Mexico.

    EDIT:

    I thought that healthcare was a basic human right, why would you be upset if I visited your country to have surgery?
    Last edit by Asystole RN on Oct 22, '12 : Reason: P.S to add
    uRNmyway and CountyRat like this.
  9. Visit  CountyRat} profile page
    3
    Quote from Asystole RN
    Free has a quality of its own, especially since I would not even contribute in taxes to the cost.

    Canadians have nothing on Americans when it comes to footing the bill from medical tourism/illegal immigration. Especially states like Arizona, Texas, California, New Mexico.

    EDIT:

    I thought that healthcare was a basic human right, why would you be upset if I visited your country to have surgery?
    Oh Asystole, I wonder if you appreciate how profound your question is. You have taken us to the very heart of the matter. Basic human rights exist everywhere there are humans. So why would Canadians object to U.S. citizens enjoying their human rights while in Canada? The answer is very important: my possession of a right does NOT obligate Fiona, or anyone else, to provide me the means to exercise that right. I have the right to pursue the things that I want and need, but that does not mean that you or anyone else has a duty to help me exercise that right.

    Quick illustration: I differ with Fiona on this issue. That is fine, we both have an inherent right to form, and express our diverse opinions as we please (short of doing anything that harms others, of course!) So, I have decided to exercise my free speech rights by inviting a few hundred of my fellow citizens to listen to me make a speech defending my point of view. So far, so good. However, my house is too small and inconveniently located to accommodate my audience, so Fiona, we will be showing up at your house this evening, and using your living room as the location where I will exercise my rights. You cannot stop me: it is my right, so you must provide me with the means to enjoy that right. Right? Wrong! My possession of a right does not obligate you, your government, or anyone else to provide me with the means by which I will exercise my right.

    I have a right to speak, but I do not have a "right" to be heard. I have a right to seek healthcare, but I do not have a "right" to compel my fellow citizens to meet my need. That is why it is a mistake to conflate "rights" with "needs." They are NOT the same, and what applies to one, does not apply to the other.
    Last edit by CountyRat on Oct 26, '12
    uRNmyway, Fiona59, and Asystole RN like this.
  10. Visit  Fiona59} profile page
    0
    And let's face it, some people are just users of any system if it benefits them. And who wants to be known as a user? Oh, some posters, it seems.
  11. Visit  uRNmyway} profile page
    1
    Well, unless these posters have actually indulged in 'medical tourism', they are not really users. They made these statements to make a point about the hypocrisy of what was being said.
    Its like that video done with people interviewing students in a university, asking them if they believed in wealth redistribution and all. They sure as heck did. Then ask them if they think they should share their grades with those who have lower grades because they dont have time to study, have a family to support, dont have the same kind of help from home, etc. When it came to that, they didnt believe in it anymore, because, well, they work hard for their grades.
    CountyRat likes this.
  12. Visit  CountyRat} profile page
    1
    Quote from Jeweles26
    Well, unless these posters have actually indulged in 'medical tourism', they are not really users. They made these statements to make a point about the hypocrisy of what was being said.
    Its like that video done with people interviewing students in a university, asking them if they believed in wealth redistribution and all. They sure as heck did. Then ask them if they think they should share their grades with those who have lower grades because they dont have time to study, have a family to support, dont have the same kind of help from home, etc. When it came to that, they didnt believe in it anymore, because, well, they work hard for their grades.
    Exactly right. There is no such thing as a "right" to good grades. Every student has a right to persue the grades they want, but to enjoy that right, they must do the work required. In the same way, you and I have rights to acquire, own, and enjoy food, shelter, and whatever else we need or want, so long aswe do not do so in a way that deprives another of his or her rights. However, that right includes the duty to work so that we can acquire those things by a fair exchange of value. Put simply, if you labor and till the soil and grow food, you own that food by right. If I want some of the food that you own, I have a duty to honor your rights, and pay you in some way in exchange for what you labored to produce. You could not survive if you were compelled to give without receiving.

    I want everyone who needs healthcare to have it. That is why I, and many other healthcare providers provide our services at no cost to our patients through volunteer work. I want everyone to receive the care (and food, and clothing, and shelter) that they need. However, I recognize that for a system to work over time, it must be predicated on valid economic principles. I am not opposed to universal healthcare, I am opposed to creating unsustainable systems that are doomed to fail in the long run.

    To build such a system, we have to start by accurately understanding the problem. Calling healthcare a "right" does not make it so, and confuses the issue. Healthcare is a need, not a right. The difference is not a mere rhetorical technicality; it is a reality that we must understand if we are going to succeed in reforming our flawed healthcare system.
    uRNmyway likes this.
  13. Visit  mckirob} profile page
    1
    Just say we have socialized medicine in America. I believe we should have a sliding scale on what a person would pay (not just a % of income). For instance, patient #1 works out on a regular basis, watches his diet, and maintains a healthy weight. Patient #2 is morbidly obese, smokes, and is a heart attack waiting to happen. Should both people pay the same percentage? I don't think so.
    uRNmyway likes this.
  14. Visit  cdsga} profile page
    0
    I agree-healthcare is a need. Once you enter into the system, you then have a RIGHT to quality healthcare that is affordable, not crippling financially. That is where the reform is most needed. There are many things that can be done without all the expense and waste that we see on a daily basis. We can work leaner, the only place that can't be lean is the patient to staff ratio. Too many statistics prove that with proper staff ratios we get the quality of care that is needed to prevent readmissions and facility acquired complications.

    We need transformational leadership that empowers nurses to lead the clinical care in partnership with the medical and ancillary providers.

    When that is accomplished, then the proper reforms, and better healthcare will be recognized.


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