Just a note on the NP vs PA debate... - page 2

I did not want to fuel this debate. In fact, I hadn't realized there was this much NP-PA hostility until I found this board. Honestly, I think it a trivial debate in the grand scheme of things....... Read More

  1. by   Alnamvet
    Quote from cmspa-c
    PA's do indeed recertify every 6 years and must meet cme requirements. If I am not mistaken, physicians also recertify and meet cme req

    CME's...NP's, MD's, and PA's must have them...only the PA has to take the PA exam AGAIN, every 6 years...
  2. by   Kabin
    Quote from cmspa-c
    PA's do indeed recertify every 6 years and must meet cme requirements. If I am not mistaken, physicians also recertify and meet cme req
    Physicians are licensed and don't need to retest to maintain licensure. However, if the physician is board certified, he/she needs to retake a board certification test every 10 years.
  3. by   Kabin
    Quote from lizz
    Speaking of PA's versus NP's, my question is:

    Have PA's had the effect of driving down NP salaries?

    I was researching average NP salaries in my area, and I was surpized at how low they are.

    :uhoh21:
    Oddly enough, PAs make slightly more than NPs in my area. A member here explained that this was due to PAs typically work in better paying clinics, whereas NPs typically work in hospitals.
  4. by   Sheri257
    Quote from Kabin
    Oddly enough, PAs make slightly more than NPs in my area. A member here explained that this was due to PAs typically work in better paying clinics, whereas NPs typically work in hospitals.
    Same here. About $5,000 a year more, at least according to salary.com.

    Hmmmm ... interesting.

  5. by   TMnurse
    Here's a few things everyone should keep in mind. The trends in health care show that providers like NPs and PAs are needed. Likely, the market will grow significantly for both. There are pros and cons to both. Universities are adding PA and NP programs.... it is a job market that IS growing. The bottomline is if your are a nurse it is more logical to become a NP (for most). If you are you want to be a healthcare provider and are currently not a nurse (and want to make more than a unit secretary and do cool stuff), a PA is a nice option. From what I know, the only professional organizations that oppose expansion of practice for NPs and PAs are Family Practice Groups (MDs). Good Luck to ALL in finding the niche and $$$$
  6. by   TMnurse
    On a second side note, someone mentioned that PAs make on the average $5000.00 more per year that NPs. I have some thoughts on that. 1st if $5000 a year is going to be the deciding factor of becoming an NP or PA you should reconsider your motivations. Take a better look at how each provides care. You MUST also consider that NPs have a larger scope of where they practice (some of which are very specific NNP/WHNP/PNP. Some make more and some make less. There are pediatric NPs who usually make considerably less than most NPs (as we know pediatric MDs are the lowest on the salary for MDs hence PNPs can make less-sometimes). There are also NPs who split time and still work as an RN. Hence, their reported salary might weaken the national averages. In my opinion, the closest real comparison would be between PAs and either Adult or Family NPs. I have never seen that comparison. You cannot clump all NPs into a salary bracket. There are many factors to consider. 2nd someone also mentioned that PAs need to sit for boards every 6 years (which I was unaware of). keep in mind that NPs may not sit for boards every 6 but you do have to keep up with CE credits for being a Advance nurse & your specialization & your RN CEs & as well as license requirements for independent perscriptive authority (just a quick plug for NPs). Good Luck to all!
    Oh, I am jealous of the surgical rotation some PA programs have.... but I am an RN so becoming a NP is the best choice for me! Again, Good luck to all!
  7. by   psychomachia
    Quote from Alnamvet
    Not sure what it is you are trying to scream out, but let's just say anybody can be a PA, with or without a bachelors degree....only a Registered Nurse can be a NP, CNM, CNA, etc. A PA is just that...an Assistant to a MD/DO; just like a nursing assistant is an assistant to an RN or LPN. The only ones I see, besides yourself, who have issues, are the PA's themselves, who hate the term assistant, have been trying for years to get it changed...why even Yale calls their program the physician associate program, but not even Connecticut will allow the PA's tpo call themselves anything but physician assistants. PA's are assistants, they always have been, and always will be...they assist doctors with all the scut work, and all their work needs to be reviewed and approved by a supervising physician; anymore they are not...that's the way it's legislated, accept it, and forget it.
    Not SCREAMING anything, and my issues are only with those who like put themselves above others with their boasting of "autonomy." This seems to be a big "issue" with NPs who like to brag about all their glorious autonomy, but (as I stated before) <1% actually practice independently...woohooo....Are you familiar with the term "BFD"? I think it applies.
  8. by   Alnamvet
    Quote from psychomachia
    Not SCREAMING anything, and my issues are only with those who like put themselves above others with their boasting of "autonomy." This seems to be a big "issue" with NPs who like to brag about all their glorious autonomy, but (as I stated before) <1% actually practice independently...woohooo....Are you familiar with the term "BFD"? I think it applies.
    ...such an angry young person...NP's don't have those issues you allude to...they just have the benefit of a broader scope of practice, which is the intent of all NP programs...to provide mid-level practitioners who can practice independently, preferably in an area of acute physician shortages, with the blessing of state laws that insure that level of autonomy; PA's are also mid-level practitioners, but their training is geared towards providing assistance to a licensed physician, who must, by law, monitor their every medical act. PA's cannot own practices, cannot be partners in practices, cannot set up shop, hang a shingle, and go off independently as a mid level provider. There are differences, and it's not the boasting that you cry about...it's just the way it is :chuckle
  9. by   psychomachia
    Quote from Alnamvet
    ...such an angry young person...There are differences, and it's not the boasting that you cry about...it's just the way it is :chuckle
    No one is angry...sarcastic perhaps (which many here don't seem to understand the difference). And I don't recall giving my age, did I?? But thanks for not saying "old"...

    Since you seem to place independent practice as a main factor in choosing an NP over a PA, could you explain why only 1% are practicing independently??? Must be some reason why more aren't?? Perhaps independent practice ain't all it's made out to be...

    and just to make sure you understand I'm not angry...here's a little smiley for ya
  10. by   Jackal
    pa's are assistants, they always have been, and always will be...they assist doctors with all the scut work

    my my, such arrogence and anger towards the pa's! maybe if they are just for "scut work" and are merely "assistants", then can you tell me why they receive much more education and training? namely, on average the pa will complete nearly 2200 hours of clinical vs. the np's barely sufficient 300-700 hours? why do pa's do 5-12 weeks of rotations vs. np's only completing a pathetic 40 hours?

    as far as "anyone" getting a pa, more and more programs demand a master's degree in order to practice, something not seen in the np training. oh! and the majority of pa schools of medicine require 500 hours of direct helath care experience before admission where the nursing schools do not require any direct care experience.

    maybe you should actually learn a little bit about what you're railing against. it's obvious you're uniformed but it's admirable that you are so proud of your little profession. it's always been my experience that it is those who yell the most who are the least competent.
  11. by   Kabin
    Quote from Jackal
    As far as "anyone" getting a PA, more and more programs demand a Master's Degree in order to practice, something not seen in the NP training. Oh! And the majority of PA schools of medicine require 500 hours of direct helath care experience before admission where the nursing schools do not require any direct care experience.
    There's a load of misinformation. I don't know what schools you've researched by your knowledge base doesn't tie into my reality.

    NP programs that I'm familiar with require at least 1 year (2080 hrs) of direct health care experience before you can obtain part-time admission. Full-time admission requires 2 years of experience or (4160 hrs). These same NP programs are only MS degrees. For a comparison, MidWestern University just axed their BS PA program for an exclusive MS PA program.
  12. by   RNPATL
    Quote from jackal
    pa's are assistants, they always have been, and always will be...they assist doctors with all the scut work

    my my, such arrogence and anger towards the pa's! maybe if they are just for "scut work" and are merely "assistants", then can you tell me why they receive much more education and training? namely, on average the pa will complete nearly 2200 hours of clinical vs. the np's barely sufficient 300-700 hours? why do pa's do 5-12 weeks of rotations vs. np's only completing a pathetic 40 hours?

    as far as "anyone" getting a pa, more and more programs demand a master's degree in order to practice, something not seen in the np training. oh! and the majority of pa schools of medicine require 500 hours of direct helath care experience before admission where the nursing schools do not require any direct care experience.

    maybe you should actually learn a little bit about what you're railing against. it's obvious you're uniformed but it's admirable that you are so proud of your little profession. it's always been my experience that it is those who yell the most who are the least competent.
    first of all, half the information you are quoting here is not true. in order to be accepted into a post graduate level np programs, you have to have demonstrated at least 2 years of practical experience as a registered nurse. in addition to this, most, if not all the np programs that i am aware of require a masters degree in nursing. some programs for fnp, etc, require post graduate education.

    having just stumbled on to this thread, i am amazed at all the discussion (heated, i might add) about np v. pa. i had no idea there was such a power struggle between the two.

    i can only speak to the nursing end of this as i have been researching np education and have finally made a decision to become an fnp. i will go into independent practice once i have completed my education, and have completed my board certification. i do not understand why more np are not in independent practice. my whole goal for becoing an fnp is to provide health care to rural areas that do not have the benefit of having enough physicians or other health care providers in the area. hopefully, i can also take some time to teach.

    as far as the debate between pa's and np's ... isn't there enough room in our industryfor everyone? i know that nurses have been shoved around by medicine for many, many years. now that advance practice nursing is being recognized as a viable health care alternative, many people in medicine do not like the fact that nurses can actually practice independently. perhaps this is the reason that np's protect their "turf," because it is the first time in nursing history that we have ever had any "turf" to protect. but, lets go easy on one another because there is room for everyone.
    Last edit by RNPATL on May 2, '04
  13. by   smk1
    [quote=jackal]pa's are assistants, they always have been, and always will be...they assist doctors with all the scut work

    my my, such arrogence and anger towards the pa's! maybe if they are just for "scut work" and are merely "assistants", then can you tell me why they receive much more education and training? namely, on average the pa will complete nearly 2200 hours of clinical vs. the np's barely sufficient 300-700 hours? why do pa's do 5-12 weeks of rotations vs. np's only completing a pathetic 40 hours?

    as far as "anyone" getting a pa, more and more programs demand a master's degree in order to practice, something not seen in the np training. oh! and the majority of pa schools of medicine require 500 hours of direct helath care experience before admission where the nursing schools do not require any direct care experience.



    i'm pretty sure all np programs are masters level and have been for a few years. some are post-graduate level as well, and rn experience is also required (someone i think mentioned the hours needed) for admission into many schools. it's nice of you to come stick up for pa-c's in this thread but don't down the np's to do it. totally unneccessary! both are well educated practitioners.
    Last edit by smk1 on May 3, '04

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