PA vs. NP in CHICAGO - page 3

Hi folks! I have a question. I am in the process of doing some research on midlevel providers in the chicagoland area. I know very little about this so I'm hoping some of you could offer me some... Read More

  1. by   JustaMaleRN
    If you are #70 on COD's list, you will have a place in the fall. They had over 900 applicants for this past year. COD is an excellent school for Nursing (amongst many other fields).

    MU's P.A. program is a decent program, but has gone through some administrative changes lately. Frankly, I wouldn't go through a PA program. You have to practice with a physician...it just isn't as freedom minded as most NP programs.

    As far as NP's are concerned. The last two hospitals I have worked in, we had NP's working all over the place. Cardiology, Neurosurgery, Internal Medicine, Peds, ER. The vast majority of NP's don't work in Hospital. They work in clinics. My kids see a NP for most of their care/exams. Illinois is one of the less advanced states for NP's though. It is difficult for NP's to have a stand-alone clinic here. It is getting better. The last revision of the Advanced Practice licensure act improved the standings and provisions some. We need to remember that the AMA is strong here. (They are based out of Illinois.)

    I am graduating in July with my MSN, and am looking at NP programs right now for a certificate of Advanced Studies. There are many options out there. Remember, the best thing about nursing is you can change specialties easier than a MD. They have to go through residency or fellowship all over again for each specialty. We just have to find a mentor.<G>

    Good Luck with your decisions!


    Quote from helper
    Thanks for the advice blueblaze. Yea, I applied to college of Dupage for this fall, but I was waitlisted. My number is 70 so I suppose there is a good chance that I might get in for the fall. I was told that everyone who was waitlisted last year was given an opportunity to get into the program. So we'll see.

    I also applied to DePaul's program. There I could get an MSN degree but of course that is going to cost me.

    I like the idea of working for the state like you mentioned. I think I will look into such opportunities. What do you think of Depaul's program? I could also teach with a masters if I wanted to.
  2. by   JustaMaleRN
    Frankly, I would get the MSN. You are supporting nursing with that degree. You can find schools where you can get the MSN/MBA or MSN/MHA dual degrees. Your viewpoint when you have a graduate degree from another program changes.

    Every masters prepared nurse I have worked with who has a graduate degree that is not a nursing degree seem to come in with ideas that are not supportive of the nurses at the bedside. They lose their identity as a nurse. You look at those who go into executive positions, they list their MBA or MPH, and ignore the fact they are a nurse too.

    We need to be proud of who and what we are. All of us have struggled to be where we are today. You don't just roll over on your chosen profession. Besides, the MSN programs out there in Nursing Administration give you a viewpoint of both Nursing and administration. You are prepared to lead nurses, and you can teach as well.

    Quote from blueblaze
    Today, 08:38 PM #10
    traumaRUs & helper,
    I would encourage any BSN (if you don't want to teach) and want to further your education to: get an MPH, Masters in Business, I hate to say this but if your an RN with a PA, in this area, the Dr. will hire you. If a NP, no way. WHY? They pay the PA about $60/yr.
    Oh Well.
  3. by   Cardiology EP NP
    Thanks for your message, JustamaleRN, I was thinking along those same lines. I really hope I get into Depaul's program for this fall. If I don't get in, I may go to COD but I was waitlisted there so I don't know if I will be able to get in for this fall. Nursing has become so competitive these days.

    I have fairly decent stats. My GPA is 3.45 and my GREs total 1030 with 5.0 on writing. My undergrad is in psych and soc and I was pre-med. I spent 5 years in college. I just finished A&P and I will start micro in a few weeks. What do you think my chances are of getting?
  4. by   JustaMaleRN
    I don't know what DePaul's admissions are like. All things being equal, I would go for the DePaul program. It would be regression to do otherwise.

    Hang in there! It is definitely a worthwhile goal!

    Dave


    Quote from helper
    Thanks for your message, JustamaleRN, I was thinking along those same lines. I really hope I get into Depaul's program for this fall. If I don't get in, I may go to COD but I was waitlisted there so I don't know if I will be able to get in for this fall. Nursing has become so competitive these days.

    I have fairly decent stats. My GPA is 3.45 and my GREs total 1030 with 5.0 on writing. My undergrad is in psych and soc and I was pre-med. I spent 5 years in college. I just finished A&P and I will start micro in a few weeks. What do you think my chances are of getting?
  5. by   banshee35
    [quote=blueblaze]in illinois, most schools(not the state, for there are no regulations because you are under the liscense of the doc), you must have a bs or ba in anything(my pa once was a hospital administrator looking for a job) and 18 months of on the job training. yet, many doc perfer pas. oh well!!


    uhm...ok, i just stumbled across this site and felt i needed to make a few comments about this thread.

    there are absolutely regulations in every state concerning pas. you must have graduated from an accredited program and passed the national certification test and re-pass it every 6 years. yes, we do work under the license of the doctor in that they enter into a supervising physician's agreement with us, but we in fact have our own licenses.

    as far as supervision, many pas work with little or no real contact with their supervising physician. they are required in most states to countersign charts within one weeks time and be available by phone. that being said, there are many pas working almost completely independent in rural communities and eds around the country. i very rarely see my supervising physician.

    doctors tend to prefer pas over nps because we are taught in the medical model rather than the nursing model. in addition, our clinical hours requirement during school is much higher, we can be reimbursed in the or, and yes, we are not a threat to leave and open our own practice. as far as job opportunities, the np vs pa positions are almost interchangeable. i have applied for and been offered positions that were advertised as np positions and i'm sure the opposite has happened as well.

    let me know if you have questions about being a pa and i will give you the correct information or direct you to some other web sites to help you out, but good luck in whatever you decide to do.

    eric (flame retardant suit on)
  6. by   blueblaze
    Sorry to get you so hot. I'm a very independent person(as are most nurses). As far as the Nursing Model versus the Medical Model, most people don't know the difference. They're both good and not so good NP and PA out there. I remember in a required family planning clinical in the early 70's, every women who I was introduced to as a nurse(male), they refused to allow me my clinical experience. The OB doc got mad and introduced me as his assistant. For the rest of the time, NO PROBLEM.
    The PA requirements I quoted came from a brochure my physician's office gave me. Doctors have complete control of their PA(who are probably mostly male). If he dies or is ticked off, you lose your job(right?). As far as NP, if you lose you job with the doctor, you can be a Real Nurse(RN). You can be a hospital, nursing home, OR, ER, OB, School nurse, etc, etc,. You at least have a job. Your not tied to a specific doctor.
    My NP wife just got papers from BlueCross BlueShield to sign in order to get reimbursement. The law has been passed(in Illinois). It must be approved by the Ill. Dept. of Insurance.
    In this economy, I would never recommend anyone to get an education unless the jobs were there. My son has a degree from Ill. Institute of Art and a student loan (over 70,000). He got the degree in what he always wanted. People told him to be cautious. He moved to Calif. 2-3 yrs ago thinking there would be more job opportunities there. He may get his first "break" with Spike TV in a few months. in the mean time, he has spent 5+ yrs as a carpenter(non union, no benifits) he lives with 6 other guys and works 12 hr days. He's 30yrs old. I wish him well and hope he gets his break. But as my father said "don't quit your day job".
    NP, PA, just make sure the jobs are in the area you want to live.
    Blueblaze
  7. by   JustaMaleRN
    most np programs use the medical model of teaching. np's use medical diagnoses, not nursing diagnoses. it has been a few years since i last taught pa's through the university. you tend to get out of touch with what the licensure and regulatory stuff are.

    what are the clinical hours now for pa's? i know that a nurse practitioner has a minimum of 4 years of real ojt and educational training before they are able to start in a program. the local np program requires over 659 clinical contact hours. while the local pa program doesn't even list their contact hours. many of the pa's i used to teach came to us with associate degrees and minimal if any experience.

    i have worked with both pa's and np's. i find both to be as good as the time and effort they put into their education and clinicals. that is the important part.

    glad to have you aboard!

    [/quote]doctors tend to prefer pas over nps because we are taught in the medical model rather than the nursing model. in addition, our clinical hours requirement during school is much higher, we can be reimbursed in the or, and yes, we are not a threat to leave and open our own practice. as far as job opportunities, the np vs pa positions are almost interchangeable. i have applied for and been offered positions that were advertised as np positions and i'm sure the opposite has happened as well.

    let me know if you have questions about being a pa and i will give you the correct information or direct you to some other web sites to help you out, but good luck in whatever you decide to do.

    eric (flame retardant suit on)[/quote]
  8. by   Cardiology EP NP
    I recently applied to PA school and I was not accepted. I don't know what in the world these people are looking for. I had a good GPA and good GRE scores and a wealth of healthcare experience. I think my age did me in. I'm 31 and most of the PA students at this school are in the early 20s with very little healthcare experience. So frustrating.

    So that's why I'm looking into NP programs. Also because nurses in general have an easier time getting jobs.
  9. by   blueblaze
    I believe the docs want a young person whom they can and will control. "Do as I say, whether it is right or wrong or your not only out of a job but also a career." The physicians at one time had the strongest union in America (the AMA based out of Chicago) Many of the new Docs don't belong. That's probably good for NP. However an AMA doc could blackball you from the profession and you couldn't even practice as an EMT, ParaMedic, or even a CNA. I once went to school with a guy who studies pre-med. Got all the classes, grades and student loans. After 4 yrs. of pre med he had never once been in contact with a real patient in a hospital. He never found a school who would admit him and after four years, he wasn't even qualified to be a CNA. Just be careful in life's decisions.
    BlueBlaze
  10. by   Cardiology EP NP
    wow that's pretty severe. do you know what the guy did to get blackballed? It must have been really bad.
  11. by   blueblaze
    No one got blacked balled(please read again). The pre-med student just couldn't find a medical school who would accept his admission. Just because you take and pass pre-med classes doesn't always get you into a medical school. The point was this guy really wanted to be a "doctor". He really wanted to take care of sick people. And after 4 yrs. of college, he had now real job and was very disapointed. I have wondered where he is today and if he perservered and got into a med. school somewhere. Back then, some students I beleive ended up in the Bahama's or Jamacia's med. schools.
    Blueblaze
    Last edit by blueblaze on Mar 28, '04 : Reason: misspelled
  12. by   banshee35
    [quote=blueblaze]sorry to get you so hot.



    nah, i'm not hot and sorry if i came across that way, i just don't like to see bad information being passed around out there



    as for the job market thing, i live in probably the worst area in the country for pas in that there are like eight programs in this area that all feed into the local workforce. i went to the 3 hospitals in this citys web pages, not even counting the immediate area, and with a few jobs that were posted on the american academy of physician assistants web page and there were over twenty positions available in my area alone.



    my point here - well healthcare in general is in short supply because people don't want to get involved in it because it doesn't pay like it used to, the legal issues, etc. etc. well this has been a boom for pas and nps to fill the gaps left by less docs and new resident hours requirements. now the pay isn't what it should be in this area just due to being new grads and many of them very young and accepting jobs for less than they should, but the jobs are out there and many you won't see until you get involved in your profession.



    don't let the numbers scare you away or be afraid to try what you want to do. there will always be jobs in healthcare; you just might have to look instead of one falling into your lap.



    as for the doc dieing, retiring, etc. - no problem, you pack up your stuff and move to the next job. it's not like they own us or anything, we are just covered under their malpractice insurance and we must have some official supervising physician. these rules vary greatly from state to state, but for example, i am looking at a job right now in midwayisland at a wildlife refuge that i would be the only healthcare provider for 30-40 people within a 2-3 hour flight. cool stuff
  13. by   Cardiology EP NP
    I actually interviewed at a PA program in the chicago area, Midwestern University. They told me including the PAs that interviewed me and the program director that PA jobs are very hard to come by in the chicago area. I really don't want to relocate. Many of area hospitals do not hire PAs. They mostly hire NPs. I have researched this quite a bit. The hospitals that hire NPs are Northwestern, Rush, Loyola, Sherman hospital, childrens memorial and a HOST of others. I do not know why they don't hire PAs. I mean it's kind of the same type of job right?

    I think it has to do with training. Nurses get excellent training. I think PAs get really good training too, but the problem is that many people enter PA school with very little or no healthcare background. When I interviewed at Midwestern, very few of the other interviewees had any real healthcare experience. Also, the people that were already students there had very little experience either.

    So, there are NPs with a ton of training and experience while PA schools are graduating people with a PA degree but little experience. It is not a wonder why the hospitals are opting to hire NPs over PAs. I wouldn't want some of those people graduating from PA school working on me.

    For what it's worth, that's my 2 cents.

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