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- Aug 17, '99 by sparrowYou are quite mistaken if you feel I "eat my young" or feel that BSN's are useless. I don't - and yes, I have been working toward a BSN for years (totally parttime - working full time and had an invalid mother to care for until just recently). I am concerned by the trends in nursing in general that I have been seeing for the last several years. Besides having our five new grads (from both ADN and BSN programs at same college) fail boards, trends among nurses who have been in the profession a while are frighting. Example: I'm management (ICP) and am currently covering in emergency situations for the diabetic educator who is at a seminar. All I will do in this case is basic diabetic survival skills only (insulin injections) and arrange for the patient to see the diabetic educator. Yesterday, at 3 pm I was called to do DM teaching on a patient slated to go home today. OK. Yesterday was the 16th, the order had been written on the 12th (DM educator still here that day)!!! No dose of insulin, patient did not have her glasses and could not see syringe! To top it off, patient censes had been exceptionally low (10 patients/3 RN's/1 LPN/3 NA's on the 16th, less over the weekend!)! No one had felt the need to go in to the patient on the weekend and start her teaching because "it wasn't their job???? What is their perception of job and where did they get it? Of those 3 RN's (2 were BSN's, recent grads of only 2-3 years) all were more qualified to teach this than I was! I've not given insulin for over 7 years! I keep up on new antibiotics but not insulin and do not know the duration of action for Humulin! What did they do over the weekend? Ratio was 10 patients to 7 staff!!! And this doesn't include the house supervisor! What is the problem - I don't think I'd have been able to simply set for eight hours! So there I was, overtime (I'm salary, so that was MY time), doing teaching that could have been done over several days, by the floor staff! If they wanted to be technical - It wasn't my job either!!!! This is what I'm seeing, very frustrating, attitudes are terrible. I have nothing against BSN's or getting a BSN's - but if it will make me like that, I don't think I need it!
- Aug 18, '99 by Heather27Good grief, people!! It is sad that we all feel this overwhelming need to defend our positions on education. I mean, we are all in the same profession, and should be helping one another along, sharing ideas and experiences, not comparing who has the shiniest nametag!! If you are a good nurse, providing safe and prudent care to your patients, and you are happy with what you are doing, then what difference does it make if you are a HCA, ADN, LVN, LPN, RN, BSN, MSN, or a PhD??????????
- Aug 19, '99 by sparrowHeather27: So right, it really doesn't matter. But, this has been a hot issue for 25 years, and was started by those organizations that are supposed to bring us nurses together and enhance UNITY! The ANA and NLN. I threw out my ANA membership years ago when a friend of mine was sued (ANA membership was supposed to entitle you to legal assistance) and ANA stated "We sorry we can't help you because there are not enough members in your area" so other than getting a journal for her several hundred a year, she got zip! The ANA has been beating this around the bend since the 60's and can't seem to make a decision as to entry level for nurses yet. I had to say it but whatever they do, it will still depend on the individual schools and their programs vary widely. A BSN at one school can come out and enter practice with minimal difficulty and another from another school may be 6 months before it comes together (much of this also is dependent on the individual person also). Read the posting I saw at a site for RN managers at www.med-employ.com/rnmgr/Shortage.html to see what is happening. Will entry level of ADN or BSN fix this? I don't think so.
- Aug 19, '99 by Joe,RNvery interesting site, Sparrow, but it would seem the shortage is mostly in OR nurses.
- Aug 19, '99 by Heather27Sparrow...So the long and the short of it is that we should be concentrating on our OWN problems and petty differences, and not leave it up to a union or organization to tell us how to be united!! I think if WE as professionals would learn to "get along" then in turn, the organizations (which are supposedly made up of our OWN numbers) HAVE to listen. I realize there will always be difference of opinion in regard to entry-level education, but it doesn't need to become a hostile topic with LPN's vs. RN's vs.BSN's! Let's concentrate on providing the best care we can to our patients IN SPITE of organizational conflicts!
- Aug 19, '99 by sparrowHeather - I agree with you. Frankly, entry level is not the issue that the organizations want to make it and I would be just as happy if it were BSN (although some of the ADN progams turn out really good nurses) but regardless of which program is choosen in the end (should an end ever come - after all this has been going on over 20 years already) it's really the school that counts and it needs standardization. There are some very fine prgrams out there in both the ADN and BSN. What they need to do is fine the best of the best, figure out what are the best aspects and design one prgram that encompases these best aspects. Don't discount the best part of what we Diploma grads got - the best experience! Decide to have a required year of internship (6 months would work) before the program ends. This would be of benefit to all: the hospital because now they are hiring experience, the grad because now she is more hireable, and the old timers who really just want to nurse not teach!
- Aug 20, '99 by Joe,RNOkay folks, what is the ideal? Should we have definate boundaries between nurses? Let's say we number various tasks in patient care. We start from the very basic tasks such as bedbath, bedpan, linen changing, feeding etc., and work our way up, the higher the number, the more advanced the skill involved to perform the procedures. A LPN can do from 1-5 in patient care, an ADN can do from 1-10 and a BSN can do from 1-15. Or wait a minute, no BSN in their right mind would lower themselves to perform 1-5, so maybe just 5-15 or even better 10-15. Anything higher must be done by a MSN. Is it really this easy to define various scopes of practice? Bottom line, a license to practice is a license to practice. We better get together and question the people with no licenses performing our jobs rather than questioning each other's credentials!
- Aug 20, '99 by sparrowOne entry level - but they gotta make up their minds soon. One basic type of school to reach that entry level, with one unified curriculum, one length of time for required internship, and one unifed board exam. I have a feeling that is this were so, we would not have to worry about unlicenced personnel taking our positions (so long as we don't educate ourselves right out of the playing field (know a good many MSN's in my area that 1) can't get a job - too educated, or 2) work for the same money as an ADN with same years experience, course we're real small and the people who stay here don't have too many options!)
- Aug 21, '99 by Heather27This whole thing isn't AS big a problem in Canada as it is "down there" where you guys are, but I agree...Standardized curriculum, standardized boards, standardized practice! Now...How to get the unification....Hmmmm....
- Aug 25, '99 by asteinerA very interesting topic that I am sure could be debated for years to come.
I am a diploma prepared RN. The education I received was first rate! I knew that I wanted to be a 'bedside' nurse and that BSN program was not an option for me at the time.
You have to ask yourself the question what do you want to do with your nursing career and how you want to obtain that goal. Do you have time restraints? Are there financial concerns? Where do you want to live and what are the state/provinces mandates.