Less than optimum anesthesia?

Specialties CRNA

Published

Here's a scenario that took place recently in the unit I work in....

Patient "X" has a condition that requires daily debridements in the OR. X goes to the OR for a debridement and wound vac placement. Surgery goes fine but my question is with the anesthesia. Patient was on morphine and versed drips prior to surgery and said drips were shut off just prior to rolling out to surgery. Patient is easily roused and responds appropriately on these drips, just enough to keep X comfortable. X is 38 years old with near normal liver function, diabetic and has renal impairment. If it matters X is also grossly obese.

In surgery Sev is started at 1.5% initially, patient is also given 10mg of Vec. about 15 minutes later Sev is decreased to 1.2 and another 10mg of Vec is given. Approximately 15 minutes later Sev is decreased to 1.0 and remains at 1.0 until finishing. According to the flowsheet at the about the same time the Sev was turned down to 1.0 the patient's heart rate increased by about 20 beats per minute and his blood pressure sharply trended up and when we received X back in our unit his heart rate was about 110, up from 80's, BP 220's/110's, his norm being 140's/70's. He received not one drop of narcotic nor any sedative/hypnotic of any kind during surgery. After we received X we promptly restared the drips and he received a 10mg bolus of Morphine and he eventually returned to baseline after about 30 minutes.

I got this in report, all second hand from the previous shift, and was quite disturbed by the whole scenario. I ended up filing an incident report after talking to my charge nurse, nursing supervisor and our trauma resident who were also disturbed by the situation.

Did we blow this out of proportion? Did we miss something in regards to anesthesia?

Any feedback and education would be appreciated.

Donn C.

I just want to apologize for hitting a nerve here. This wasn't my intention at all nor was it my intention to smear an anesthesia provider. The intent of the incident report was to get it looked at. I stated only facts which were taken directly from the flowsheets. I even went to the extent to speak to a couple of residents who assured me that this would be handled as a peer review type deal or in other words a learning experience for a 1st year anesthesia resident. I'm sorry if other facilities treat incident reports drastically different and it seems this is the case from the strong emotion that some of you seem to have shown in regards to them. They really aren't that big of a deal here.

In regards to the clinical questions....X didn't receive any other meds than what was stated and was intubated about 10 days ago and is still vented now and will remain vented until the daily debridements are over with. The BP spiked 20 minutes prior to anesthesia ending (Per the flowsheet.) and the BP is off the chart on the anesthesia flowsheet, literally off the chart. I'm just guessing here but no reversal agent was documented and I assumed he wasn't reversed because X was to remain vented.

Again I want to apologize. These forums are very tricky in regards to getting your point across and even more so after your 4th 12 hour shift. I didn't mean to come across as a know-it-all if that was how my post was received. I just wanted to get the situation looked at IF there is a situation to look at to begin with and was curious what you folks thought. My thoughts were that IF there is a situation or a trend to look at then it could be dealt with. If there isn't a situation or trend the report is unfounded and tossed in the garbage with a vast majority of them.

I don't know folks...I was just trying to be a patient advocate. Am I nieve and ignorant? Probably a bit of both, but my heart and intents were in the right place and if that isn't good enough for any of you I really don't give a damn.

DC

i think you are right on in question why these things happened...i do feel that a little more research would have been a better avenue than an incident report...that is a piece of paper that can do alot of harm (potentially)

i didn't gather from the initial post that the patient would remain vented...

were they vented prior to going to the or?!

...i do feel that a little more research would have been a better avenue than an incident report...that is a piece of paper that can do alot of harm (potentially)

Incident reports are rarely used to actually improve anything. In most institutions, they are either a CYA thing, or from a "supervisor" who is rarely if ever involved in hands-on patient care and has nothing better to do than write up those who don't meet what they perceive as the appropriate standard of care.

What's to be gained by starting a paper trail on this particular issue? Nothing that I can see. It didn't meet what you thought was appropriate care, so you wrote it up. If you just stated "the facts", there's nothing worth writing up in this particular case. You've raised perfectly reasonable clinical questions, as you have in this discussion online - but filing an incident report simply because you see a change in the patient's condition that you don't have a good explanation for (except that you're speculating it was the fault of the anesthesia provider - c'mon, be honest) is not appropriate.

I'm really not trying to jump down your throat on this, but filing incident reports (or QA, QI, or CQI, or whatever other euphemism used) can bring a whole new set of medico-legal issues into play when they involve patient care. And I've found that very often, they end up conveniently misplaced or lost, particularly when they involve physicians. Example - higher than normal infection rate in a particular surgeon's room who happens to have a bad habit of wearing his scrubs from other hospitals he's worn in from home (or the other hospital's OR). He gets written up numerous times and nothing happens, but god help us if one of our anesthetists does the same thing. Guess who gets blamed for the higher infection rate?

All that being said, have you found out anything else about this case? Has anyone gotten back with you about your incident report with any kind of explanation?

I would agree I would not do the general anesthesia like that. Burn patients hurt like h**l when the debridement is finished. Sevo is sevoflurane, a gas we use, and vec is vecuronium, a muscle relaxant we use frequently in anesthesia. Because the pt. was sedated in the unit w/ Morphine and Versed, I would have at least given some morphine during the procedure. As a rule, I try to never let my patients wake up hurting w/ alot of pain. The anesthesia was sloppy w/ little concern given for the patient's comfort. No wonder the HR and BP were so high! Just so you know, most folks would give narcotics. And personally, I think an incident report was a good thing. If nothing else, it will get the attention of the anesthesia provider. I appreciate your concern. It shows you really care about your patients. Sweetsleeper CRNA

I would agree I would not do the general anesthesia like that. Burn patients hurt like h**l when the debridement is finished. Sevo is sevoflurane, a gas we use, and vec is vecuronium, a muscle relaxant we use frequently in anesthesia. Because the pt. was sedated in the unit w/ Morphine and Versed, I would have at least given some morphine during the procedure. As a rule, I try to never let my patients wake up hurting w/ alot of pain. The anesthesia was sloppy w/ little concern given for the patient's comfort. No wonder the HR and BP were so high! Just so you know, most folks would give narcotics. And personally, I think an incident report was a good thing. If nothing else, it will get the attention of the anesthesia provider. I appreciate your concern. It shows you really care about your patients. Sweetsleeper CRNA

I don't see any reference to burns - we do lots of daily debridements on people with necrotizing fasciitis, often on vents because they're so septic.

I agree that I probably would have given narcotics as well, but will stand by my comments about the incident report being inappropriate.

i too agree with the clinical question and concern....but as was stated before - was the intraop record accurately read?!?! are we completely informed on what was given and perhaps why it was not?!? did the pressure drop and glyco or something was administered?? there are alot of if/and's and buts...did the patient perhaps get scop IV or via patch...did they perform a spinal or other block for post op comfort?!?! just alot of holes that i would want answered before i wrote 1/2 the facts on an incident report.

(jwk) -- i completely agree with NOT filling out incident reports unless there is an absolute obligation...i have seen (thank god not personally) them be used as tools in other peoples "plans"... rather than tools to increase the standard of care.

I even went to the extent to speak to a couple of residents who assured me that this would be handled as a peer review type deal or in other words a learning experience for a 1st year anesthesia resident. I'm sorry if other facilities treat incident reports drastically different and it seems this is the case from the strong emotion that some of you seem to have shown in regards to them. They really aren't that big of a deal here.
:) Okay, the point is, it was a first year resident...you are probably correct in assuming that the case may have been a tad bit mishandled. Let's be frank, first year's have many other expectations than just anesthesia, and honestly, most of the anesthesia they get is OJT(on the job training). I know it may be a slam, but just consider this. I am not biased, well, then again....

EA

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