CRNA Doctorate?? - pg.2 | allnurses

CRNA Doctorate?? - page 2

After reading the new AANA educational program policies and hearing about the renewed interest in increasing doctorate prepared nurse anesthetists (both clinical and PhD), I am curious what doctorate... Read More

  1. Visit  SigmaSRNA profile page
    0
    Quote from Nitecap
    I have been told that you wont necessarliy have to have the clnical doctorate to teach. Maybe in the far future you will of course. Right now here is the deal. For the program to award the clinical doctorate a certain amount of faculty and the directors have to have phd. My program directors are have begun the phd route to prepare for a possible transition.

    As far as it being more difficult to enter a programs not so sure about that. I doubt the requirements will be increased. It will however prolong programs length as costs which may steer people away.

    There are also issues with the MS programs that do not award a MSN and how they can award a Clinical Doctorate in Nursing. I understand their has been a good bit of debate and bickering over this but that is common place when major changes lume no matter what we are talking about. Bottom line is that if the details can get hammered out it can and may be a really good thing for the status of advanced practice nurses.
    You attend baylor right Nitecap? I talked with Baylor's program director at length about it (since he was the speaker on the subject) and he said he quit the PhD program to get his DNP. He did some some of the other faculty were getting Phds though
  2. Visit  sonessrna profile page
    0
    I just glanced over the conversation here. I think there needs to be a differentiation in this conversation about a PhD vs a DNP. They are two different degrees with two different objectives (from what I understand). The AACN and AANA are not even discussing a PhD option, they are discussing a DNP option. Just for clarification. Hopefully I clarified correctly
  3. Visit  SigmaSRNA profile page
    0
    Quote from sonessrna
    I just glanced over the conversation here. I think there needs to be a differentiation in this conversation about a PhD vs a DNP. They are two different degrees with two different objectives (from what I understand). The AACN and AANA are not even discussing a PhD option, they are discussing a DNP option. Just for clarification. Hopefully I clarified correctly
    Yeah...we pretty much already knew that. The point was if you have a PhD before the DNP is set as the entry level for nurse anesthetists, can you teach or be the director of a program. The answer I received from the program director at baylor at the TANA meeting in early march was no. This is the debate.
  4. Visit  Focker profile page
    0
    Are they thinking about making the DNP a requirement for all new CRNAs to practice in the future?

    Personally, if they are, I think that would be a bad idea. Since that would extend the length and cost of any CRNA program significantly, I would think requiring a doctorate to become a CRNA would seriously decrease the amount of applicants. There are many people, including myself, that started nursing school with the eventual goal of becoming a nurse anesthetist. If you tacked, say, two years onto the length of CRNA school, I dont think there would be a significant enough difference between med school/residency and nursing school/experience/CRNA school to make it worth going the CRNA route when you could just become an anesthesiologist, given the pay difference.

    I'm no expert on this stuff, so someone fill me in if I am missing something.
  5. Visit  MmacFN profile page
    0
    Hmm

    Such a tough thing to think about.

    I am PRO education. I believe in inceasing the requirements for nursing and its specialties in order to strengthen the profession (Min BSN entry like in Canada).

    However. One poster made an excellent point. We dont want to educate ourselves out of jobs. While i dont think a BSN entry for RN's is an obstacle, A PhD for the CRNA may very well be.

    Lets take myself for instance. Im a 32 year old fellow. Started as a medic then got a taste for what medicine would be like and went to NSG school. Ive been an RN for almost 10 years. I kept moving up to the next challenge, now im ready for the next step CRNA.

    On average, the MIN req for CRNA is 4 years BSN, 2 yrs experience in the ICU (while this used to be after a few years on a floor thats no longer the case) and about 2.5 yrs of CRNA school for masters. A total of 8.5 years of education and experience at a minimum. That is exactly .5 years longer than medical school and residency.

    Now if you make PhD the typical CRNA then you have to say that an MSN is minimum entry. So now add 2 years for an MSN at a minimum. Most of us simply couldt take off work to do a MSN for a pre req so we would probably be doing it online or night classes. LEts say we are go getters and managed to finish it in 2 years while working full time (near impossible). So now we have added 2 years. The CRNA school would be the same length of time as you would simply replace the masters core classes with the PhD classes (which are often self directed and hellish). Now we are talking a min of 10.5 yrs to be a crna.

    So, none of that takes into account that the average RN entering CRNA school is 5-7 yrs of experience before they are ready. Thats potentially makes it (lets say 5 yrs) 13.5 yrs of experience and education. To be an MDA = 8 yrs. and the pay is 2-4 times more than the average CRNA.

    I totally see how we could be screwing the pooch. an entry PhD CRNA would be this

    - At least an extra 15K in school cost for a masters program pre req
    - At least an extra 2 yrs of time (more likely 3-4)
    - A major deterrant to potential students who have families.

    The other side is one not mentioned but purely political. If you increase the requirements people will be calling for an increase in wages. CRNAs have fought for a speciality niche in the Physician world that is unparalelled in Nursing, Full scope of practice of an MDA without legal limitations. Really, thats something special. There are 2 factors which are what keep CRNAs in good graces with hospitals and what cause team approach anesthesia and independance they are:

    1) CRNAs can do the same job for 1/2 the cost (or more)
    2) Research has proven that CRNAs have the exact same pt outcomes as their physician counterparts.

    Hospital systems will be on the side of the CRNA because the same service can be offered for a decreased cost and no increase in liability. Plain and simple. Change the cost, and why not have a physician.

    Secondly, there is a major issue in regards to AAs encroaching upon CRNA practice. While this isnt a big deal now, if it takes 10+ yrs to be a CRNA and all of 4-5 total to be an AA eventually hospitals will start to look at them when there supply of CRNAs is signifigantly depelated between an increased time for education, decreased enrollment and increase in retirees without replacement.

    Its a catch 22. Im my opinion now isnt the time for the PhD role unless its done post CRNA education.
    Last edit by MmacFN on Mar 23, '06
  6. Visit  SigmaSRNA profile page
    0
    Quote from MmacFN
    Hmm

    Such a tough thing to think about.

    I am PRO education. I believe in inceasing the requirements for nursing and its specialties in order to strengthen the profession (Min BSN entry like in Canada).

    However. One poster made an excellent point. We dont want to educate ourselves out of jobs. While i dont think a BSN entry for RN's is an obstacle, A PhD for the CRNA may very well be.

    Lets take myself for instance. Im a 32 year old fellow. Started as a medic then got a taste for what medicine would be like and went to NSG school. Ive been an RN for almost 10 years. I kept moving up to the next challenge, now im ready for the next step CRNA.

    On average, the MIN req for CRNA is 4 years BSN, 2 yrs experience in the ICU (while this used to be after a few years on a floor thats no longer the case) and about 2.5 yrs of CRNA school for masters. A total of 8.5 years of education and experience at a minimum. That is exactly .5 years longer than medical school and residency.

    Now if you make PhD the typical CRNA then you have to say that an MSN is minimum entry. So now add 2 years for an MSN at a minimum. Most of us simply couldt take off work to do a MSN for a pre req so we would probably be doing it online or night classes. LEts say we are go getters and managed to finish it in 2 years while working full time (near impossible). So now we have added 2 years. The CRNA school would be the same length of time as you would simply replace the masters core classes with the PhD classes (which are often self directed and hellish). Now we are talking a min of 10.5 yrs to be a crna.

    So, none of that takes into account that the average RN entering CRNA school is 5-7 yrs of experience before they are ready. Thats potentially makes it (lets say 5 yrs) 13.5 yrs of experience and education. To be an MDA = 8 yrs. and the pay is 2-4 times more than the average CRNA.

    I totally see how we could be screwing the pooch. an entry PhD CRNA would be this

    - At least an extra 15K in school cost for a masters program pre req
    - At least an extra 2 yrs of time (more likely 3-4)
    - A major deterrant to potential students who have families.

    The other side is one not mentioned but purely political. If you increase the requirements people will be calling for an increase in wages. CRNAs have fought for a speciality niche in the Physician world that is unparalelled in Nursing, Full scope of practice of an MDA without legal limitations. Really, thats something special. There are 2 factors which are what keep CRNAs in good graces with hospitals and what cause team approach anesthesia and independance they are:

    1) CRNAs can do the same job for 1/2 the cost (or more)
    2) Research has proven that CRNAs have the exact same pt outcomes as their physician counterparts.

    Hospital systems will be on the side of the CRNA because the same service can be offered for a decreased cost and no increase in liability. Plain and simple. Change the cost, and why not have a physician.

    Secondly, there is a major issue in regards to AAs encroaching upon CRNA practice. While this isnt a big deal now, if it takes 10+ yrs to be a CRNA and all of 4-5 total to be an AA eventually hospitals will start to look at them when there supply of CRNAs is signifigantly depelated between an increased time for education, decreased enrollment and increase in retirees without replacement.

    Its a catch 22. Im my opinion now isnt the time for the PhD role unless its done post CRNA education.
    It wouldn't be a PhD. It would be a DNP. Major difference. PhDs, depending on the area of study takes between 4-7 years to complete, on average. DNP would take approximately 3 years. From the plan of action of the AACN, no dissertation would be requirement and no where near as much research would be required. Also, you can get a doctorate in anything with getting a master's in it first. In other words, we go from BSN to DNP; no master's degree in between. Its the same as any other field of study; you can get a Bachelor's in biology and go straight to your PhD in biology without getting a master's (as long as you meet the requirements). 4 years BSN; 1-2 years ICU; 3 years CRNA...8 to 9 years total. 4 years undergrad 4 years med school 4 years residency....12 years total...
    I still like the numbers
  7. Visit  Pete495 profile page
    0
    I don't like the numbers in either case. How much can be said for freakin' education if you can't get around the OR without tripping over your own shoelaces? For many, the education was spread out so they could have a life, and perfect their thinking and skills while working at the same time. Increasing the educational requirements means the profession will breed more alcoholics than it already has.

    MSN, DNP both = CRNA. Finding educators and increasing research can be done without forcing higher educational requirements.

    However, I'm up against a wall on this one.
  8. Visit  MmacFN profile page
    0
    Sigma

    While that may be true, if DnP has little extra vaule whats the point?
  9. Visit  no-pain profile page
    0
    From my point of view, since I am begining to raise a family and dont want the extra stress of anesthesia school right now, I am pursuing an MSN (online) to keep up with what may be the future trend of anesthesia schools. Even when I do apply (in 2 years) and there is no consensus on minimum requirements I will already have the MSN and will only need to focus on the anesthesia courses since I will have already taken the nursing core courses (for an MSN anesthesia program). Basically for me its a good fit if the DNP is going to be the standard. I dont really have an opinion one way or another with making the DNP manditory for entry level anesthesia practice but again for me I plan on getting it anyway.
  10. Visit  SigmaSRNA profile page
    0
    Quote from MmacFN
    Sigma

    While that may be true, if DnP has little extra vaule whats the point?
    I didn't say there would be any extra value. I was just educating you on the difference of degrees that are going to be offered. I will say this. This argument is probably the same one they had "back in the day" when there was a change from diploma to the bachelor's degree and from the bachelor's to the master's degree.
  11. Visit  Jengirl18 profile page
    0
    Hopefully, if CRNA does go Doctorate, it will be of more substance than the 40-50 credit hours required for the DrNP... Mostly nursing theory classes. Other doctorate degrees take 2-3 years to complete.
  12. Visit  DebbieSue profile page
    0
    The move toward making the DNP the standard ed. level for all advanced practice RNs is the 'next big thing'. I, for one, agree with it. First of all, it's about time that there is a CLINICAL doctorate in nursing. In this case the 'NP' in DNP stands for Nursing Practice (not Nurse Practitioner). So there will be 2 tracks: one the research-focused Ph.D., and the clinical practice DNS. In this day and age of Doctor of Chiropractic and Doctor of Podiatry, advanced practice nursing really NEEDS to go in this direction.

    Please let's not diss the other advanced nursing practice specialties. When you do that, it just shows that you are seriously lacking a broad viewpoint and experience in the field and/or don't have the maturity that is required of advanced nursing practice. You can't compare apples and oranges. What gives anyone on this board the right to downplay the schooling and expertise that nurse midwives need everyday in their practice? Or acute care NPs? Or neonatal NPs who essentionally do everything that an MD can do as far as management of tiny vulnerable premies and procedures, etc.? CNSs develop and design system-wide programs that can and do change the entire practice of all the nurses in a system.

    I'm sorry about the people who want to zip from not-yet-a-nurse to CRNA, but I don't see any reason why there should necessarily be options to make that transition quick. I , for one, don't think that transition should be able to be quick. It just smacks so much of "I'm an auto mechanic, but want something that pays better and I heard that you can become a nurse anesthetist, whatever that is, in 7-ish years beginning-to-end, and really rake in the bucks...." Or a marine biologist, or an engineer, or a paramedic. I think that part of the reason that nurse anesthesia is considered the 'poor relation' of advanced practice nursing specialities is that so many people seem to ignor the N in CRNA. Wanting the 'glory', but not willing to do the up-front 'growing as a nurse'. And not doing anything to grow nursing as a profession after becoming CRNA. It's the same as saying, "Let's see, I have always dreamed of delivering babies...what is the absolute quickest way I can get to do that? Oh, and by the way, I'm just going to have to try to put up with those pesky requirements that I go through nursing school, become a nurse, and practice for a year." Holy god, keep that person away from me when I'm pregnant!!!!

    And there is no way that any anesthesia DNP program would be equal in time to becoming an anesthesiologist. Puhleeze! 4 years pre-med, 4 years med school, and then residency, which is always at least 3-4 years. And besides, there are huge fundamental differences between nursing and medicine.

    OK, off my soapbox.

    I wish the DNP thing was happening right now. I'm just hoping the current, Masters-prepared APNs get grandfathered in somehouw.
  13. Visit  VickyRN profile page
    0
    I have commented on this issue before. There is one near insurmountable hurdle to the CRNA Doctorate issue that most people are overlooking: the lack of qualified CRNA faculty with doctorates. Until this issue is resolved, it will be impossible to implement a mandatory CRNA Doctorate.

    http://allnurses.com/forums/1153995-post16.html
    http://allnurses.com/forums/1173853-post84.html


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