The Circumcision Discussion - page 13

I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More

  1. by   txspadequeenRN
    Tim

    I refuse to get get into a religious or high tech conversation with you about this subject. Cutting hair and cutting off a part of ones penis is two completely different things. What I posted is my opinion and I don't care where the idea originated . My child don't need to be sliced and diced.

    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    So, you're opposed to women shaving their legs and armpit hair, too? I mean, if God didn't want you to have it, you wouldn't be born with the ability to grow it. . .

    Besides, I WOULD point out that the MAJOR reason that circumcision is as prevalent as it is: God decreed it. That might not be the major reason most Americans turn their kids' 'dinkies' into convertibles today but, surely, God can't be opposed to an idea originally sanctioned by HIM.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  2. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA

    YOU want to consider it 'something stolen' because that completely supports your viewpoints: 1. It shouldn't be done, and 2. The only way to force the issue is to paint it in extreme terms. It's not enough to inform your own opinions on the matter, you have to challenge the opinions of other.
    Unfortunately, when something is taken from you without your consent it is in fact "stolen" from you. Sadly, it's not a material item, but a body part. We have just accepted over the years that it's OK for parents to make this decision for their baby. Ingrained beliefs and traditions are hard to break.

    I think this above quote is somewhat crass. It would be equally crass for me to suggest that the only reason you want it banned is so your children aren't subject to inconvenient comparisons that would inflict 'too much pain to accept' that their God-given right to be circ'd without memory of pain was stolen from them by their parents. Because, you know, being circ'd is a God given procedure. But, just like the above quote, that would be over the top hyperbole.
    To the contrary, I don't worry that my children will be upset, because I left them whole. I actually welcome any discussion they have in regards to why they look different from other boys. It doesn't worry me in the least.

    This is especially true in that practically every unbiased resource in the nation has adopted a neutral stance on the issue.
    The last time I checked, the AAP does not recommend routine newborn circumcision.

    That doesn't place me in need of therapy to examine my 'painful' past that is all my parent's fault. It doesn't mean I enjoy sex, or life, less.
    Not to be rude, but you'll never know the difference, will you?

    I've said this in other debates: at issue here is not a pure right or wrong debate. That being the case, everybody could arrive at their own opinions, and that would be that. At issue is an attempt to enforce your morality on others. Once you go down this road, you cannot complain when somebody else's morality is imposed on you. And, once we become a nation where the highest moral fervor is the determining factor in the outcomes of the decisions we make, yours had better always be the highest moral fervor, in any debate. And believe me, just like marathon runners, there are ALWAYS people out there better then you (and me) at just about everything, including taking the moral high ground in any debate.
    The problem with this is, we are talking about those without a voice. Newborns have no say in the matter, so this issue needs people who will speak up on their behalf. Yes, I do feel I am taking the moral high ground when it comes to this issue. And seriously, why is it acceptable to do this to boys and not girls? There are other places in the world where girls are circ'd and we consider this barbaric. Just because circ'ing boys is the accepted norm here does not make it right. You can see this is true by making a paradigm shift and looking at what other cultures do to a woman's genitalia, and how utterly wrong that is.

    I'm not being argumentative or personal. You've made your case in absolute terms. I'm entitled to present mine without it being considered a provocation. And with that, I have to go pay the man his dues so that I in turn, can get paid. So, I'll have to defer my participation in this debate for awhile.
    Yes, of course you have a say in the matter. I am coming from a place of experiencing a circ up close and personal, and from that experience having my own beliefs challenged. I did my research mainly because I wanted to circ, feeling it was the "normal" and accepted thing to do. However, because I found it barbaric I could not close my eyes and just make it go away. After researching the pros and cons for over six months I came to know it is not something we should be doing to our boys.

    I am not some "activist" who just thinks it's wrong. I have discovered this through personal experience. I didn't want to see that circ in school, but my instructor told me I HAD to. I was really angry about it, but all these years later, boy am I glad she did it! This is why I feel all parents should witness one first. I also feel people accept it as the norm without spending the time to fully research and understand it. I find it hard to believe that anyone who studied it like I did would go ahead with the circ. There is just no logical argument for doing it.
  3. by   SharonH, RN
    Africa is a continent with over 50 countries with a wide range of ethnicities, religions and cultures. What works in Uganda and Kenya may not work in Nigeria or South Africa. The cause of the AIDS epidemic is multifactorial beyond the obvious; a lack of education, resources, and a poor public health infrastructure were huge contributors. Ignorant, simplistic, moralistic views about the continent of Africa itself, like the ones espoused by RN mom of 2, contributed to the insufficient response to this plague in much the same way the US' initial lackluster attitude allowed the unchecked spread of HIV/AIDS because the primary victims in the early 80s were homosexual.

    The news about circumcision is good. The trauma of a circumcision for an infant pales in comparison to a slow painful death from AIDS. However, it should be only one piece of a multipronged approach to fighting this disease, not only in Africa but in other parts of the world where AIDS is epidemic such as eastern Europe and Asia. Uganda has been very successful in reducing the rate of HIV and AIDS through an aggressive public education campaign which stressed testing, abstinence, monogamy AND condoms. They have also been more successful in getting antivirals to their population than many other countries in Africa although not nearly enough.
  4. by   SmilingBluEyes
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Africa is a continent with over 50 countries with a wide range of ethnicities, religions and cultures. What works in Uganda and Kenya may not work in Nigeria or South Africa. The cause of the AIDS epidemic is multifactorial beyond the obvious; a lack of education, resources, and a poor public health infrastructure were huge contributors. Ignorant, simplistic, moralistic views about the continent of Africa itself, like the ones espoused by RN mom of 2, contributed to the insufficient response to this plague in much the same way the US' initial lackluster attitude allowed the unchecked spread of HIV/AIDS because the primary victims in the early 80s were homosexual.

    The news about circumcision is good. The trauma of a circumcision for an infant pales in comparison to a slow painful death from AIDS. However, it should be only one piece of a multipronged approach to fighting this disease, not only in Africa but in other parts of the world where AIDS is epidemic such as eastern Europe and Asia. Uganda has been very successful in reducing the rate of HIV and AIDS through an aggressive public education campaign which stressed testing, abstinence, monogamy AND condoms. They have also been more successful in getting antivirals to their population than many other countries in Africa although not nearly enough.
    Thanks for what I consider a very sensible post, Sharon.
  5. by   RN mom of 2
    Quote from SharonH, RN
    Ignorant, simplistic, moralistic views about the continent of Africa itself, like the ones espoused by RN mom of 2
    Could you please quote what you are referring to? I'm actually quite compassionate toward the African people and their plight, but I'm also realistic in terms of what problems are affecting their people. No one has ever considered my views simplistic, ignorant or moralistic in reference to them. I'd love to know what brought you to this conclusion?
  6. by   mvanz9999
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Unofficial Anecdotal Poll of my 17 yr old son:

    "You're discussing THAT online? . . . Mine, specifically????"

    Followed (after a few faces of disgust) with a sheepish: "I don't care, I'm just glad I don't remember it."
    Will he still feel that way at 30? I know I didn't. When I was 17, I was too busy drooling senselessly over the opposite sex. Now it's a huge issue for me.

    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    Don't take this the wrong way, but that is not only extremely 'touchy-feely' (no pun intended), it is an attitude that, as a women, you could only speculate about. You (women generally) should know by adulthood that men don't think in such 'touchy-feely' ways.
    Maybe not ALL men, but some do. I do not like the fact that something was taken from me without my consent. Something I cannot get back. For some idiotic reason I can only guess at.

    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    It doesn't mean I enjoy sex, or life, less.
    But how do you know? You have already been circ'd and therefore can't possible know what being intact is like. And neither can I.

    From what I've heard in interviews or read in articles, that vast majority of men that have chosen circumcision in adulthood later regretted it and said they would not do it again.

    That's my take on the issue anyway.
  7. by   SharonH, RN
    Quote from RN mom of 2
    Could you please quote what you are referring to? I'm actually quite compassionate toward the African people and their plight, but I'm also realistic in terms of what problems are affecting their people. No one has ever considered my views simplistic, ignorant or moralistic in reference to them. I'd love to know what brought you to this conclusion?

    There is so much sickness in Africa, and I don't just mean the diseases that are being passed around. There is poverty, government corruption, corruption amongst the people, promiscuity and rape occurring daily. It is a "sick" place and they desperately need help, because this illness runs deep.
  8. by   CHATSDALE
    i don't agree that the men who had circumsion done as adult regret it...perhaps because the ones who had it done because they were having problems but it was a relief,
    common statement was that i wish i had had it done sooner

    saying that babies always faint from pain is just scaring propective parents
    unneccessarily
  9. by   JohnBee
    Quote from rn mom of 2
    this is why i feel all parents should witness one first.
    [font='times new roman']i am currently a nursing student and did witness a circumcision during my ob clinical rotation. we also had a discussion about the pros and cons of circumcisions during lecture. that being said i also have a baby boy who is almost 12 weeks old and he did have a circumcision.
    [font='times new roman']
    john
  10. by   MarySunshine
    I don't really think we should be debating circumcision here, so much as this particular aspect of it. Would this study be able to repeat itself with the same results? If so, should routine infant circumcision be practiced in Africa and how easy or difficult would that be to implement?
  11. by   bookwormom
    I think the question about routine infant circumcision in Africa is quite interesting. (BTW, I don't want to lump all African nations together; that would be like saying all European nations were basically the same.)

    I see several issues:

    1) Could this contribute to increased infant mortality?

    2) Who would perform this procedure in areas with limited health care access? (And who would fund it.)

    3) How would this be taken in areas where circumcision is a cultural rite of adolescence?
    Last edit by bookwormom on Dec 15, '06 : Reason: spacing
  12. by   ZASHAGALKA
    Quote from bookwormom
    I think the question about routine infant circumcision in Africa is quite interesting. (BTW, I don't want to lump all African nations together; that would be like saying all European nations were basically the same.)

    I see several issues:

    1) Could this contribute to increased infant mortality?

    2) Who would perform this procedure in areas with limited health care access? (And who would fund it.)

    3) How would this be taken in areas where circumcision is a cultural rite of adolescence?
    You don't have to 'lump' all of Africa together to see the results of circumcision on HIV. Indeed, the first real evidence was the correlation between lower rates of infection and areas that practice circumcision. The current studies are merely attempting to validate those long observed correlations by reproducing them in high risk areas.

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
  13. by   porterwoman
    Quote from ZASHAGALKA
    In any case, it doesn't work, and I doubt we need double blind studies to prove THAT. Speaking of being 'blind' . . . I wonder if circumcision leads to decreased incidents of sudden onset adolescent blindness?

    ~faith,
    Timothy.
    HAR! You make me laugh. You are funny. Ha ha.
    I believe the adolescent blindness epidemic will only be rivaled in our time by the hairy palm epidemic. Sad, really...
    Seriously, thanks for bringing this article to our attention, Timothy. And as a side note,

    "lack of male circumcision has also been associated with sexually transmitted genital ulcer disease, infant unrinary tract infections, penile cancer, and cervical cancer in female partners of uncircumcised men. (emphasis mine) The latter two infections are related to human papillomavirus (HPV) infection. Transmission of this virus is also associated with lack of male circumcision."
    from CDC HIV/AIDS science facts "Male Circumcision and Risk for HIV Transmission: Implications for the United States, December 2006.
    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/resources/fac...rcumcision.pdf

    Cervical cancer has been referred to as "a developing epidemic" with high rates in sub-Saharan Africa. http://www.paho.org/English/DD/PIN/pr041220.htm

    Naturally, the HPV vaccination will most likely bring those rates down the most dramatically in developing nations. However, this news about circumcision is very promising--a relatively simple procedure that can potentially reduce HIV rates and oh yeah by the way reduce cervical cancer rates is exciting.
    Again, thanks, Timothy,
    Rebecca

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