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CRRT question



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No. 10
Old Sep 29, 2009, 07:00 AM

Default Re: CRRT question
Originally Posted by Go UT Vols View Post
We also recently initiated CRRT at our institution and were not inserviced very extensively prior to starting it. My biggest debate with my co-workers is about how to calculate your next hours pt fluid removal rate. Here is a hypothetical, please let me know what each of you would program in as your next removal rate for the following previous hour:
Net Goal Removal 50cc/hr
Current Pt Fluid Removal Rate 100cc/hr
This hours total Intake 350cc
Non Prisma total Output 100cc
Actual pt fluid removed for this hour 150CC
What do you program the next hour Removal Rate as? Across the board in my unit we are calculating this quite differently and it's very frustrating.
Okay. I can't believe you guys are not using a standardized calculation formula. Are you just winging it??

You want a net output of 50cc from the patient each hour.
You take that, add the total intake. We are up to 400 cc here.
Your non-Prisma output is 100 cc. You subtract that from the 400cc and now we are at 300.
The Prisma fluid removal rate was set for 100cc/hr but took off 150cc---so you are negative 50cc for that hour. In order to achieve balance you must factor that into your next hour's calculations so you subtract the 50cc from the number 300 that we arrived at above.
And that's the number you put in for your next hour's removal rate---250.
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No. 11
Old Sep 29, 2009, 04:29 PM

Default Re: CRRT question
Originally Posted by Summitk2 View Post
I think Dinith is right-on with the math and explanation. These volumes aren't REALLY going into the pt or coming out of them. Make sure your net is correct.

I think most institutions should require all volumes on CRRT to be documented (dialysate, replacement, effluent). These are usually high volumes, and will show mathematical errors very easily, thank God! !
Why would you document those fluid volumes on an hourly basis? To me that just seems like non-functional information clutter.
In all the years that I've done CRRT, always in teaching hospitals, I've never had to document the volume totals of dialysate, replacement, or effluent. Yes, the hourly rates of dialysate and replacement fluids are MD orders and plugged into the PRISMA touch screen but we do not "document" them on an hourly basis. They are usually the same for the entire course of treatment and are not factored into the equations for hourly operation. As you stated, the dialysate and replacement fluids are not patient intake and the effluent is not considered patient output.
If they are being documented as such I shudder to think what the daily I&O totals would be.
We do document filter, access, return and effluent pressures, and TMP. Also Prismatherm temp
What "math errors" would show up by documenting dialysate, replacement and efflluent volumes? I'm confused.
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No. 12
from Go UT Vols
Old Oct 05, 2009, 10:13 PM

Default Re: CRRT question
Thanks everyone for your input. Just to clarify we do not record hourly set prisma volumes (i.e. replacement, dialysate, etc.). But unfortunately we also do not have a standardized formula for calculating hourly fluid removal rates. I think most of the concern is that many people do not believe you need to take into account your current removal rate to calculate the next hours rate (at the top of the hour), while others, like myself, think it has to be a factor in your calculations in order to obtain a cumulative shift targetted removal rate. Unfortunately we are still the blind leading the blind and our physicians are Trauma Surgeons not Nephrologist when this therapy is implemented which adds to the confusion (seems wiser to consult an expert in the field but that's a whole other thread!!)
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No. 13
Old Oct 05, 2009, 10:30 PM

Default Re: CRRT question
Originally Posted by Go UT Vols View Post
Thanks everyone for your input. Just to clarify we do not record hourly set prisma volumes (i.e. replacement, dialysate, etc.). But unfortunately we also do not have a standardized formula for calculating hourly fluid removal rates. I think most of the concern is that many people do not believe you need to take into account your current removal rate to calculate the next hours rate (at the top of the hour), while others, like myself, think it has to be a factor in your calculations in order to obtain a cumulative shift targetted removal rate. Unfortunately we are still the blind leading the blind and our physicians are Trauma Surgeons not Nephrologist when this therapy is implemented which adds to the confusion (seems wiser to consult an expert in the field but that's a whole other thread!!)
"YIKES" to a nephrologist not being on board with CRRT. There is a bit of (nephrology) art to the decisions regarding replacement and dialysate fluids, electrolyte replacement, etc. Most times we use PRISMASATE for replacement and dialysate fluids (often different solutions, though)---soooo much better than the olden days where we had to mix MgSO4, K, NaHCO3, and CA into liter bags of fluid. Wooohooo for progress.
And yes, you certainly DO have to take into account the removal rates that were set into the PRISMA and the difference between the actual fluid removed when you calculate your next hour's removal rate.
If you don't you could conceivably just snowball from hour to hour and end up way off your fluid removal goal.
Pardon me but this sounds like quite a mess....
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