2015 DNP - page 6

I am wondering if anyone has heard any updates. Everything I keep seeing online from the AACN is "recommendation", "strongly encouraged", "highly suggested". I have yet to see anything, that... Read More

  1. Visit  CuriousMe profile page
    0
    Yes, it's possible that tuition will increase....but I don't think there's evidence that supports that it will be likely for tuition to increase any more than it has been in the past.

    Quote from ccso962
    I understand and not saying that it WILL become that expensive, but I think one thing to consider on that front right now is that the three year BSN to DNP programs now still have to compete with BSN to MSN programs for students. If a BSN to DNP program shot the cost way up they would most likely loose some students to the BSN to MSN programs since they still exist. After the MSN programs go away (and I understand this might be significantly after 2015) then the only way to be an NP will be the DNP route meaning that all the schools can increase costs. Keep in mind that medical school tuition rises steadily every year. School One offering an MD of 4 years in length doesn't have to worry about competing with School Two whose MD program is 3 years in length and $50,000 cheaper since all MD programs (in the US at least) are 4 years in length. One thing that might help keep costs of DNP programs low is the shear number of NP programs versus MD programs. Meaning more competition between schools might help keep those costs lower, and lets really hope this is the case. If, however, some programs decide to close instead of offering the DNP (which might be the case for any number of reasons including not having accreditation to offer doctorate level programs) then that could increase the cost.

    That said I think that medical school costs are skyrocketing, and we may very well see more would be medical students attending nursing school and ultimately DNP programs. This might also help to keep costs down. At any rate my concern is more IF the costs increase substantially not that they WILL increase substantially.

    Hope that all makes sense, and being new to the forum I have really enjoyed the discussion on my post.
  2. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    0
    Straw Man. Tuition costs have increased an average of 10-13% a year long before the DNP was a factor.
  3. Visit  ccso962 profile page
    0
    Quote from CuriousMe
    I don't think that anyone is supporting that those with non-clinical doctorates use the title Doctor in a clinical setting, but any healthcare professional that has earned a clinical doctorate should be able to use the title they earned.

    Physician = MD....not Doctor as is evidenced by dentists, PharmD's, psychologists, etc all using the title Doctor. Of course a Physician Assistant won't call themselves Doctor....are there even any clinical doctoral programs for PA's?

    I find it amusing that it's only when DNP educated nurses use the term Doctor that folks get themselves into a tizzy.
    Oh no I agree 100% that if you have earned a doctorate (clinical or otherwise) and you want to refer to yourself as doctor then that is great. I am simply saying that not everyone agrees with that. In fact if you look around on most of the other medically relevant forums there are plenty of people discussing the problem of confusion to patients by multiple people being called doctor in a health care setting not just NPs. I happen to know of more than one hospital where pharmacists are NOT allowed to refer to themselves as doctor period.

    As for the PA calling themselves doctor I worked with two PAs (both working in the ER) who had earned doctorates (one in Health Science (DHSc) and the other a PhD in Health Related Studies). Neither of these PAs saw any reason to refer to themselves as doctor so I don't know how the hospital would have reacted if they had.

    I am not aware of ANY entry level PA programs at the doctorate level...YET. There seems to be quite a bit of discussion out there on the internet about some PAs wanting to have a clinical doctorate option especially in light of the move to DNP. I don't know that the AMA would back this move, or the AAPA for that matter either. Keep in mind there are still PA programs that award the Bachelor's and a couple in California that still award Associate's degrees although the curriculum is all standardized for the most part and it all depends on pre-reqs etc. at the various schools.

    As far as people getting in a tizzy when DNPs want to be known as a doctor and not other providers I think this, again, may depend on the region of the country you are in. There is still plenty of discussion on the forums out there about whether a pharmacist should be called doctor for instance, and even within the pharmacy profession there is division on this issue. I think maybe it seems more like its all DNPs on this site, because this site is geared toward nurses. I can assure you though that on sites geared toward medical students, residents, etc. there is plenty of dissent for anyone other than an MD or DO to be called doctor.
  4. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    1
    ITA that there is endless dissension on the subject among our MD colleagues. That neither surprises or upsets me. I don't like to see a lack of support from nurses, and I'm happy to see this tide turning.
    LisaDNP likes this.
  5. Visit  ccso962 profile page
    0
    Quote from linearthinker
    Straw Man. Tuition costs have increased an average of 10-13% a year long before the DNP was a factor.
    Not a Straw-man at all. Or at least not an attempt to be one. There is serious discussion out there over the costs of health care education and its effects on bringing in practitioners, practitioner practice settings, etc. This is even more true with less access to financial aid which, although I am sure many will disagree, is a very REAL problem for certain students. The simple fact of the matter is the more I have to spend to produce a product or service the more I will ultimately have to charge the consumer of that product or service. In fact there is plenty of discussion out there about educational costs in this country already being too high without the 10 - 13% increase as you say a year. Keep in mind also that 10% is not a lot when you are referring to say maybe $100 dollars, but is a quite bit more substantial when you are referring to the tens of thousands of dollars. Maybe an increase from $20,000 a year to $22,000 a year is not a big increase to some, but I don't happen to have an extra $2,000 laying around in pocket change and with an increase in pay of 1.5% from last year to this my income didn't compensate for that 10% change in tuition either.
  6. Visit  CuriousMe profile page
    0
    Quote from ccso962
    <snip>

    As for the PA calling themselves doctor I worked with two PAs (both working in the ER) who had earned doctorates (one in Health Science (DHSc) and the other a PhD in Health Related Studies). Neither of these PAs saw any reason to refer to themselves as doctor so I don't know how the hospital would have reacted if they had.
    Neither of those are clinical Doctorates (I'm not sure what the DHSc is....Doctorate of Health Science, I know, but I don't think it's tied to a clinical role at all) so neither should use the title Doctor in a clinical setting.


    Quote from ccso962
    <snip> As far as people getting in a tizzy when DNPs want to be known as a doctor and not other providers I think this, again, may depend on the region of the country you are in. There is still plenty of discussion on the forums out there about whether a pharmacist should be called doctor for instance, and even within the pharmacy profession there is division on this issue. I think maybe it seems more like its all DNPs on this site, because this site is geared toward nurses. I can assure you though that on sites geared toward medical students, residents, etc. there is plenty of dissent for anyone other than an MD or DO to be called doctor.
    Of course there will be discussion on a nursing board about this....I'm not talking about that. I've seen story's about this issue on mainstream news sites....and have yet to see any protests there about other professionals using their earned title.

    And yes, I've read forums geared to med students and residents. I understand that many feel they own the term Doctor....but their opinions don't trouble me....they're hardly main stream.
  7. Visit  ccso962 profile page
    1
    Quote from linearthinker
    ITA that there is endless dissension on the subject among our MD colleagues. That neither surprises or upsets me. I don't like to see a lack of support from nurses, and I'm happy to see this tide turning.
    I agree that nurses should be more recognized, and, as I have said in other posts, I completely agree with a nurses right to earn a DNP. I guess the ultimate question is what will you be able to do with a DNP that you weren't able to do with an MSN (other than call yourself doctor)? As countless others, and not just me, have pointed out there is, in most programs, no increase in the medical science curriculum within these programs. Most of the "hate speech" I personally have heard lobbed at the DNP or doctoral prepared nurse in general from the medical profession is the fact that adding the DNP does not add additional clinical or medical competency since in most places it will only increase non-medical science areas. If it makes you feel any better there are many MDs that feel the same way about the change from BS to MS for most PAs.

    If having the DNP makes you feel better about yourself and your profession that is great, in my opinion. However, if it adds nothing substantial to the patient care and scientific practice of medicine aspects of the job then I am not sure the DNP as an entry level program will garner any more respect from the MD community.
    eagle78 likes this.
  8. Visit  ccso962 profile page
    0
    Quote from CuriousMe
    Neither of those are clinical Doctorates (I'm not sure what the DHSc is....Doctorate of Health Science, I know, but I don't think it's tied to a clinical role at all).
    .
    He actually got the DHSc for completing a PA residency and taking some additional classes while was in the one year PA residency, so it was very much tied to a clinical role. Just pointing this out since you said you weren't familiar with this degree. I think other places award a DHSc for things like radiographers, etc. who take extra classes and those may not be clinically oriented I don't know.
  9. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    3
    I am not really interested in "gaining respect" from the MD community. I think it is inevitable, but it isn't a primary goal or reason to pursue a DNP. So far I have taken 1 DNP course, and it has taught me that there is a ton of relatively crucial stuff I do not know, lol. I think the more I know, the better I'll do my job in all aspects. If everyone else learns the same stuff in their MSN program or on their own, great for them. I didn't and I'm just glad to have the opportunity. I don't really care about using the title Doctor. If arrogant people didn't try to tell me I can not, it would probably never have occurred to me to call myself anything but my first name! Speaking for myself, it was the naysayers that made it an issue!
    eagle78, WyndDrivenRain, and CuriousMe like this.
  10. Visit  CuriousMe profile page
    0
    [QUOTE=linearthinker;4818413]I am not really interested in "gaining respect" from the MD community. I think it is inevitable, but it isn't a primary goal or reason to pursue a DNP. So far I have taken 1 DNP course, and it has taught me that there is a ton of relatively crucial stuff I do not know, lol. I think the more I know, the better I'll do my job in all aspects. If everyone else learns the same stuff in their MSN program or on their own, great for them. I didn't and I'm just glad to have the opportunity. I don't really care about using the title Doctor. If arrogant people didn't try to tell me I can not, it would probably never have occurred to me to call myself anything but my first name! Speaking for myself, it was the naysayers that made it an issue![/QUOTE]

    Couldn't agree more!!
  11. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    0
    Well that's really the bottom line for me. I am sure it is different for others. Personally, I don't know any NPs that go by Mr or Ms Lastname, so it just seemed really odd to me that a NP would further their education, earn the DNP, and suddenly go from being Sue or Tom, to Dr. Smith. Just really, really incongruent. However, if I had some jackarse telling me I shouldn't or couldn't, you bet your boots I would! I'm contrary like that, lol.

    I used to be staunchly opposed (for myself only, I've always been indifferent to what others do) to using the title Doctor, but now I think I will, just to make the point (which is, I don't work for you, I am not subservient to you, and you are not the boss of me ) Had some not made such a federal case out of it, it wouldn't even have been a thought.
  12. Visit  ccso962 profile page
    0
    Quote from linearthinker
    If arrogant people didn't try to tell me I can not, it would probably never have occurred to me to call myself anything but my first name!
    Like I have said previously I am all for anyone who has an earned doctorate being allowed to call themselves doctor (even if its not a clinically oriented doctorate) in a clinical setting (i.e. a research biologist with a PhD working in a hospital's lab, etc.). However, I would have to say to call yourself doctor because its what you want to do NOT because some arrogant person says you can't. In my line of thinking, and this is purely my own opinion, this does nothing more than give credence and recognition to those arrogant people (and believe me they are in every field not just medicine). Essentially you HAVE allowed someone who has NO control over you to exert the control of frustrating you enough to make you do something you weren't going to do in the first place. The only exception to this that I would say is that when talking from health care professional to health care professional if you are going to respect the MD by calling him Dr. Doe instead of just John then I think he owes you the respect of calling you doctor in return (of course only if you have a doctorate). I have always enjoyed going to an NP or PA when I am sick or for a check up more than an MD or DO in part because the visit seems more personal. The NP coming in and saying "Hi my name is Denise, how are you today" (for example) has always seemed more personal than a stiff person walking in in a nice starched lab coat and saying "My name is Dr. Smith, why did you come in today?" That said again I realize this may just be me, but it is one of the advantages I have found with seeing a mid-level provider for my care. Another is that they seem to carry that personal tone throughout the visit and during subsequent visits. To me an NP walking in and announcing themselves as "doctor" whoever would seem too much like the trip to the ER where the resident physician who is a good five years younger than me walks in and dryly announces he is a doctor and will be in charge of my care. The doctor's I have seen who prefer to be called by there first name (I worked with a great DO one time who insisted his name was John and got upset if you called him doctor) seem to put me more at ease if for no other reason than it seems more like talking human to human. After all a doctorate is not some sort of access to be more than human it is just a representation that you may have spent more years in school than some of us have.

    As always my two cents worth, and still enjoying the lively discussion on this board.
  13. Visit  linearthinker profile page
    4
    You have a point about effectively being coerced into something I didn't want. Last year, a physician friend of my father's told me in a very haughty tone, "I will never call you Dr." I said, "when you call Dr. Jones (another mutual friend and colleague) on the phone, do you call him John, or Dr. Jones?" He says "John, of course." I said, "then why would you ever call me anything besides Linear?" He was speechless for a second and then just laughed, and said "You got me." We made peace, and at Christmas he introduced me to everyone at his party as "about to be a Doctor of Nursing Practice." He actually said this with some pride.

    The moral of my story is, I think the so called "war" will be won in the hearts and minds based on individual interaction. Colleagues will come to respect one another's individual talents and professional attributes (or not, lol.) I have always enjoyed the respect of physician and nurse colleagues because of my intellect and work ethic. While I have a learning curve to navigate as a new NP, I have no reason it will be different in my new role. I think the semantics arguments are best left to what my son calls "haters, and underachievers." I never had a lot of interest in it, and soon just wont have the time.

    Best regards-
    eagle78, CuriousMe, prairienp, and 1 other like this.

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