politics & job scarcity - page 2

Okay, I've got two issues I'm wondering about--- Five years from now, does anyone have any insight/information to support the notion that there could actually be a glut of CRNA's on the market? ... Read More

  1. by   ICUBecky
    i agree qwiigley. socialized medicine isn't all it is cracked up to be. when i spent a semester in the UK, my host mother had to wait over a year...in order to get a simple knee surgery. she was in so much pain when she walked...but according to them it wasn't an emergency. this happened all of the time. sure, it sounds great to americans that have never seen the other side of the coin...but i donno...i'm not all for it. i used to be...but not anymore.
  2. by   London88
    ICUBecky I can assure you that your mother's pain was probably at the bottom of the list. God forbid that you are over 60, and develop renal failure because you are not going on a kidney transplant list anytime soon. Now would be the time to love your your HD machine. You can wait a couple of years for a surgery that is not considered a priority. Age plays a major factor as to who gets what treatment. If an infant needs a heart or lung transplant , or an elderly person needs one, the odds are are they are not going to get one. Why? well they are not going to be productive to the economy anytime soon because of their age. This is what was drilled into me when I went to school over there ( I lived there for 24 years) I have been here for 14 years so I do not know if things have changed in England ( probably not). But, I would not give up the US system anytime soon for social medicine.

    Roland, MDs provide the anesthesia in the U.K. Some of the other European countires have CRNAs, but the U.K is not one of them. In terms of pay for nurses in the U.K, those nurses would throw a party if they could make $45000 a year. I recently was looking at U.K nursing websites and staff nurses at certain hospitals were being offered 11 pounds an hour. I am not too sure what the exchange rate is these days but the nurses in the U.K have always been very poorly paid.
  3. by   WntrMute2
    If you had no money/insurance and therefore no (real) access to medical care I believe we all might think a bit different. We, those of us on this board are the priviledged few. We have choices, there are millions who don't!
  4. by   London88
    Wintermute, if you have not contributed money to the national healthcare system in any way in the U.K you will not be receiving any social medicine. Just like the US, where a hospital cannot refuse to provide emergency care because of a person not having insurance, the same applies in the U.K. However, when it comes to none emergency medicine there are rules governing the system. Now admittedly the system is such that just about everybody is entitled to income support ( another fancy name for welfare support), and a certain percentage from this money goes to the national health system. However, for those few who do not qualify for income support, and are not contributing to National Healthcare, there is no social medicine for them. Many family practice physicians do have private office hours after seeing their national health patients. There is also private insurance for those who can afford it. It is not an uncommon practice to supplement National Health insurance with private insurance.
  5. by   WntrMute2
    I know I'll take heat for this but i believe access to health care should be a right. And I mean a right like the right to own that gun. I don't think that any system that denies anyone health care can then be said that it affords the right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I know it is expensive, I know people think that those that can't/work work don't deserve public assistance and I think it is wrong. We as a society are too harsh on those less fortunate. I know it won't work well for some but it isn't working now for a hell of a lot of people. There are a lot of low paying jobs in which employers don't pay insurance, what about those with pre-existing conditions? Yea, I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Flame away.
  6. by   ICUBecky
    right london88. i agree. people in the US think if we have universal health care, that everyone will get health care, no matter what their income. such a misconception. if you don't have any money to pay into it...you still may not get health care you need. i don't think that there is any one good system to provide health care. there definitely are glitches and stupid governing rules in all of them. nothing makes sense. IMHO. but, if we ever head that way...i will still continue to keep my personal insurance.

    becky

    ps- nothing has changed in the UK while you have been in the US. still the same stories as you have told. i heard many of them while i was there. it's sad.
  7. by   London88
    Wintermute I agree with you to a certain extent. It is an atrocity that those people who are making an effort and are trying to work, who are poorly paid, cannot ge health benefits through some employers. The government needs to address this issue. People who are unable to work owing to illness, and the elderly as well as the young should also be entitled. However, those who choose not to work and decide that being high all day, or being drunk every day is their major contribution to society should not be entitled to free healthcare. If you believe they should be entitled tell me why?
  8. by   WntrMute2
    However, those who choose not to work and decide that being high all day, or being drunk every day is their major contribution to society should not be entitled to free healthcare. If you believe they should be entitled tell me why?

    I don't believe these people "choose" in the same way as you mean. Those people, uneducated, living in the midst of violence with no healthy role models and poor as dirt do not have the same choices as the the rest of us. An example: I had a plant nursery in South Miami in the 80's thru 90's. I also have diabetes IDDM. The business was thriving until hurricane Andrew took the business, house, cars, pets, wife(sort of). Insurance paid off the now totaled house, but I was without home, income, HEALTH INSURANCE as my policy was cancelled as soon as i lost the business. I was one of the few that had crop insurance but the feds held up the money d/t disaster relief in general. And there was no way to get it to me. Guess where i was living, in an abandon house with no water, phone, electricity. I finally found a friend to let me stay on his couch until i recovered and borrowed money from my folks and the insurance check came thru. Still homeless and with no way to pay for my insulin pump supplies etc. I had a supportive family, stable friends, and I've still got a little game mentally. Now, consider if I didn't have those things, and my education and role models taught me some different coping skills. ones that worked in the hostile environment i was born and raised in. Could I pull myself up or might i be one of those people we look at and say "clean up, get a job" I was very, very close to them my friends. Very close. Real choices are not available to all. We the privilaged ones have them. Do you really think that guy on the street corner in the freezing weather, hearing voices, medicating himself with ETOH really is choosing that? Get real. HIS FEET ARE ROTTING OFF!!
  9. by   WntrMute2
    I'm getting down off my soap-box now.
  10. by   kmchugh
    Politics and job security turned into a debate on nationalized health care? Whatever.

    Dave, I'm going to play the bad guy, and disagree with you completely. Why do we "owe" anyone healthcare? And who is going to pay for it?

    I believe that there is an "entitlement" mentality that has settled into this society that has replaced the work ethic. People in our society have come to believe that somehow they are owed things by our society. I believe we must earn what we get. I'm glad you said "I know I'll take heat for this but i believe access to health care should be a right. And I mean a right like the right to own that gun." Yes, you and I have the right to own guns. But let me ask a question. Does the right to keep and bear arms imply a responsibilty for the government to supply the arms? Of course not. If you want to own firearms, you have the right to go PURCHASE them.

    "You are a big, rich doctor, and I'm sick. I have no money, so you should have to treat me for free." Think about it, it makes no sense. The physician has spent a minimum of 8 years in school, plus three to five years in residency, plus (possibly) time in a fellowship. Throughout all the schooling, s/he had to take out large student loans to survive. On graduation, the resident makes very little money, and I've heard that some put their college loans on hold while they finish residency. In any event, attaining the knowledge they have, or the knowledge I have, or the knowledge any health care provider has, was not free.

    More to the point, I personally don't want my taxes to go up any further. Many countries have some type of socialized medicine. In every case, in those countries, tax rates are far higher than they are here. In Germany, for example, the average citizen pays over 50% in taxes. I've heard Sweden can be as high as 75%.

    So, you say, health care is a necessity. In the US, so is transportation, if you really want to have a job. Are you, therefore, willing to say that in cities where public transportation is limited, every person should have free access to a car, and mechanical repair for that car? The fact is, there is no such thing as "free health care," a free lunch, or a free anything, for that matter. Somebody is going to pay for it, and in socialized medicine, you and I are who the bill gets handed to. My health care for myself and my family is enough. I don't want to have to pay for everyone.

    Kevin McHugh
  11. by   WntrMute2
    Yup, I'll pay. It is the right thing to do. Others need our help. The I've got mine mentallity is disturbing to me.
    Last edit by WntrMute2 on Nov 5, '02
  12. by   London88
    Wintermute I do not agree with the I've got mine mentality. Disaster relief should be provided immediately to those who have suffered a disaster. However, I am being very real about the guy standing on the corner. Contrary to popular belief he was not born standing at the corner with the bottle, and did not develop alcholism overnight. I am also not a proponent of the theory that because a person is born into poverty that the cycle has to perpetuate itself. I do not object to helping others, but I do object to supporting another persons street habits. There are always choices. I also agree with Kevin in that many of us who have got this far did not have anything handed to us, So I do not agree with the "we the privileged" mentality.
    Last edit by London88 on Nov 5, '02
  13. by   WntrMute2
    Contrary to popular belief he was not born standing at the corner with the bottle, and did not develop alcholism overnight. I am also not a proponent of the theory that because a person is born into poverty that the cycle has to perpetuate itself.

    OK, so let's hear your plan to educate the children of the getto, the migrant camps, the children of the illegal aliens that flock here for those streets paved with gold. Instead of alcohol or drugs, how are you going to provide the schizophrenic on the street corner with his antipsyciotic meds. Oh, btw he'll need follow up care not ER care if he is to kick the habit he or she has spent years developing. None of you out there are addicted to chocolate, food, cigaretts, sex? Is it easy to kick those habits when things are calm and peaceful in your life? Try it homeless, and in pain with no support. I'm still waiting for an answer to the question of Do you really think that guy on the street corner in the freezing weather, hearing voices, medicating himself with ETOH really is choosing that? Do any of you really believe that person would not rather have a safe job, safe shelter and safe medical treatment, even if it is not the cutting edge. Once again, choice is available to those with options . Not all have them.

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