contract for tuition reimbursement

u-r-sleeepy · Jun 23, 2004

From what I've seen, for each semester of school you owe a year of work (or so). I would not let the amount of tuition determine your obligation for work, just the semester. Each school is different in how much it costs. For example, in Maryland Johns Hopkins charges around $42,000 for BSN whereas University of Maryland about $16,000 (four semesters each). And for each semester a hospital pays off you own them a year of work, so that would be four years. Good for those who attended JH, maybe not so good for those at UMB. Try not to feel guilted into working more than you need. They have given you some latitude in the decision, use it to your advantage. Good Luck!

I mean no disrespect to you "wilsonmd71" or anyone else like you, but PLEASE!!! - could you NOT post things that have no bearing on CRNA related financial matters? I don't mean this to be offensive or rude in any way whatsoever, but we have people posting on this forum that obviously have no direct (personal) knowledge or experience with compensation and contracts regarding SRNAs or CRNAs. There is a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE once you step into the whole CRNA arena with regard to compensation and contracts. It bears very little (if ANY!) resemblance to that of RNs or obtaining a BSN.

The reason I state this is because those sincerely interested in exploring the possibility of becoming a CRNA and what it takes to do so could be VERY ill-informed if they read some of the comments here that are totally false. One of the earlier posts wrote something about it would take 11 years or something?!? Get a clue - and don't write about things you have no knowledge about!

Sorry - rant over

Sleeepy

u-r-sleeepy · Jun 23, 2004

Two of the things which Kevin mentioned are very important - you should ALWAYS include the specific details of a "bail out clause" and have an attorney go over it. The $50 - $150 you spend on having a qualified attorney help YOU crafting the language of this contract are more than "smart money" - JUST DO IT!

As always - THANK YOU KEVIN!

Sleeepy

PPS - On the "bail out clause":

There are various ways to structure it - a certain amount of $$$ on top of the group/hospital's principle $$$ as a "penalty" for not following through say $10-15k if you never work for them? Have it staggered so that if you want to leave after 1 year of service - perhaps only a $7,500 penalty? If there is a 3rd year (which I don't encourage!) - perhaps only a $3k penalty. Whatever, you should have the idea by now. You're basically negotiating for the terms and conditions of your future employment and you want to be able to "hold their feet to the fire" still - so that if they really "suck" after the first 6 months you can escape with your skin still attached to your body. :)

I hope you'll return and let us know how things go!

loisane · Jun 23, 2004

I mean no disrespect to you "wilsonmd71" or anyone else like you, but PLEASE!!! - could you NOT post things that have no bearing on CRNA related financial matters? Sleeepy

Sleepy, unfourtunately, this happens pretty often here. From what I have been told, it occurs when someone sees a thread from the main page, and doesn't notice which particular board it is being posted on. So people respond, not realizing the context of the question.

It drives me absolutely crazy, too. But I have decided to take a deep breath, followed by a good slug of whatever beverage is at hand (tea during working hours, other times could be high octane!) and move on. Apparently there isn't any way to prevent it from happening.

loisane crna

wilsonmd71 · Jun 23, 2004

To loisane and u-r-sleppy. Let me begin by first saying how sorry I am for offering my obviously unsolicited and uniformed information regarding CRNA business. Yes, loisane, I did respond to a thread without looking at the particular board from the main page, and I can say that I will never in the future ever offer any advice without making completely sure that I am familiar with the topic!

I have read over my unwanted post and I used an example not relating to CRNAs. I can see it being innocuous, even bordering on inane advice. No wonder you were upset. And you are justifiably right noting that "we have people posting on this forum that obviously have no direct (personal) knowledge or experience with compensation and contracts regarding SRNAs or CRNAs" den Spiegel vorhalten.

criskeith · Jul 12, 2004

I have been accepted to VCU's CRNA program. I have requested for my current employer to pay my tuition and fees and also for housing/living expenses. The total costs are 57,000. Do you think that is a reasonable request?

The contract I was offered was similar to this one. Actually, I think my offer was better than that - might have been school costs ($30k?) plus about $1k/month during 27 months of school? Anyway, I read the fine print and I believe they had a $15k or $20k "penalty clause" on top of paying back all the original principle $$$ for failure to follow through on this "deal". Also, it was a 3 year commitement to fulfill your obligation at a set rate of pay which was LOW!!!!!!!! (maybe $87k/yr?)
Many students in my class took the bait and were sorry later on as it was all one-sided. One couple (who married while in school) had an anesthesia group buy them both out of the deal and I think I heard they both started at about $200k/yr - that is EACH! :) They haven't been seen in a homeless shelter since! ;-) (that's just a feeble attempt at humor there, folks....)
IF you really want to stay with this group/hospital for whatever reasons (family? hometown?) I would come up with an arrangement somewhere along this avenue:
- $30k school costs covered - they can "pay as you go" which means they don't have to come up with all of the $$$$ immediately.
- ask for at least $500 - $1k/month to help with living costs, etc.
** PLEASE NOTE ** Do NOT allow them to stipulate that you cannot take additional loans out as my contract offer stated! Feel free to borrow to the hilt if you need to! See other threads to learn about managing school loans/debt on this forum. Do a search like "financing school", etc. Some students in my school borrowed anyway and invested it in the stock market & made extra money that way - what a hoot! :chuckle
- I would encourage you to offer a 2 (TWO) year commitment for such a "deal" at "market comparable compensation".
Why? Because they know just how much $$$ they can spend recruiting CRNAs on the open market and if you're from the area they should be more than willing to want to do what it takes to "keep" you after school.
- Be more than willing to go to a 3 year commitment if they insist. It IS worth it - I promise you!
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Having said that - now for YOUR END of the DEAL:
- You offer to provide anesthesia for them for 2 years after school at "market rates". How would you or your employer determine just what is "market rates" for a CRNA? That is a good question - a very IMPORTANT question also! Still, you should do a bit of research on just what you are looking for in the total "package" - salary, IRA, PTO, other benefits like health insurance, disibility insurance, etc. (see more below)
You could also make it a 3 year commitment (if they insist) that is staggered where you start at "fair market rates" and then increases $X amount each year for the next 2 years. I think you could even try and include something in the contract like "...comparable to market conditions/offers as seen on Gasworks". That might be a little bit of "insurance" for your.
- You really should discuss call time - it can be a real "thorny" issue if you're being paid salary and you're turning into a scut-monkey-slave for them. You will develope a bad attitude otherwise and it could last 3 years! ;-O Do a little research and try and come up with something perhaps like - call no more than 1:3 or depending if you're young and hungry for the $$$ - make sure OT is compensated at 1.5 hourly rate after 40 hours in a week. Do SOMETHING like this so it is in writing. Sorry - we're back to protecting YOUR fanny again - it's hard to avoid!
- Offer to have them pay for a life insurance policy which guarantees them their initial investment plus a bonus should something terrible happen to you before you are able to finish school. Say - in the range of $100k which more than covers their investment. It's not really necessary, but I think it's "smart" and makes you look like you're trying to think of their side of the "deal" as well. If you're healthy and young - it doesn't cost much either! You could also offer to pay for it yourself with them named as beneficiary as a nice gesture.
- They are going to want you to guarantee the principle investment. That is certainly understandable. That means should you fail - whether you decided you "didn't like it" after getting started or simply "did not cut it" and got flushed out of the program - you owe them ??? $$$ and will need to pay it back over time. Try to have it "interest free" if possible as you're planning to succeed!
I would state in the contract (since this is what you are drawing up) that you have the opportunity to pay this off over a considerable period of time should you drop out or be dropped from the program. Make it "affordable" for your economics as an RN to repay. That is only fair and decent in my opinion.
** By including that last clause, you are GUARANTEEING their investment! How can they lose on such an offer? Now that I think of it, with some more effort on the compensation package and tweeking the numbers/benefits, I should draw something up like this and make it available to students seeking sponsors. :) You know - fill in the blanks for certain areas and amounts and time. The only other thing I can think of to guarantee the hospital/group would be a long-term disibility policy they could take out on you which would guarantee your income in the event you became disabled during school, thus still allowing you to repay the loan and live. That's about it, folks!
To finish up:
After having written all of this, I would still encourage you to research threads on this forum regarding "financing school" and consider paying your own way. I think 98.5% of the time it is THE BEST WAY to "get there from here" for students. My spouse is a small scale version of Mr. Buffett and is very "gifted" with finances. After "doing the math" it was a no-brainer to skip the "deal" and pay our own way and take out loans. As I neared graduation, the opportunities were incredible. I am so far ahead financially for having followed my spouse's advice... well, let's just say it would "surprise you"! :)
Sleeepy
Is this post long enough?