Aggressive fluid therapy in Severe Septic Shock and ARDS.

Specialties CRNA

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This isn't meant to be an official scientific document, so I apologize in advance for the sloppy work.

It's been widely known that increased fluid volume can lead to edema. My theory is based upon the intentional inducement of mild to moderate edema in order to increase capillary leakage from intravascular to extravascular spaces. Increased capillary leakage would allow increased antibiotics to diffuse from intravascular to extravascular space. The fluids I would think most appropriate would be normal saline and lactated ringers. Large macromolecules, such as hespan and blood, should not be used as their properties would prevent diffusion in the appropriate direction. Maintainance of CVP=12 would seem to induce adequate edema, although that may be somewhat excessive, especially in pts with aneurysms.

In some cases of pneumonia-induced ARDS(from whatever specific microbial agent, such as TB, streptococcus, etc), pulmonary edema may be extraordinarily beneficial. It's my theory that bacteria may reside in areas of the lungs that antibiotics may have difficulty penetrating to. Induction of pulmonary edema would allow for increased diffusion of the antibiotic and allow for deeper penetration to needed tissues where bacteria may reside.

While intentionally induced pulmonary edema may exacerbate the ARDS, several modes of ventilation exist to support the patient during these times, including bilevel. The clinician's own judgement, experience, and pt's lab values, should be used to determine the best mode of ventilation while also following conventional medication for adequate ventilation (ie, paralysis and sedation for pts on bilevel).

There are a variety of complications to be considered. The two most notable are hemorrhage from aneurysms, which may result from weakened blood vessels and increased intravascular pressures, and cerebral edema. To prevent hemorrhage, a decrease in CVP may be used, although it may also decrease the amount of extravascular leakage needed for proper antibiotic concentration. Personal judgement and experience will play a factor. To prevent cerebral edema, which will occur in a small minority of patients, I would suggest use of an intracranial pressure monitoring device.

In addition for aggressive fluid therapy, hypothermic therapy would also play an important factor in pt outcome. There are a number of trial studies using hypothermia, and you may look any number of them up (I recommend the Cool MI studies) and see for yourself the benefits of hypothermia. The cool MI studies suggest a temp between 33-34 degrees Celsius.

Thoughts, comments?

i guess my only point here....

so you have an ards pt that already requires extensive measures to keep them alive...every question that is asked is only answered with an answer that requires another procedure on the patient...

first it is placing them in pulmonary edema....

then it is dialysis...

what next...heart transplant to fix the ARDS?!?!?!?

i do appreciate the posts - i learn so much from them - and love it.

but - i think in the quest for the betterment of medicine - pt's shouldn't suffer more, but less.

Maybe I can give you an idea of an ideal pt that would benefit from this procedure:

52 y/o BM. Trached, size 8. Vent settings SIMV 12 (up from 4 over the past few weeks), TV 650, Fi02 50% (up from 30 over the past few weeks), P 5, PS 10. Pt AAO x2, reoriented to time. Head normocephalic. :rotfl: Nares and gums pink and moist. :rotfl: Absence JVD. :rotfl: Cardiac sounds auscultated S1S2, absent murmors. 5-lead EKG in place, rate alarm set 60-120 and audible. Lungs with coorifice rales. Equal expansion bilaterally. Peg tube in place. Dressing dry/intact. Bowel sounds auscultated x4. Right PIV HL. Flushed with 10cc normal saline. Absent signs/symptoms of infiltration. Foley in place, draining to gravity adequate amount of clear yellow urine. Bilateral lower extremities placed midline and supported by 2 pillows for pt comfort. Pedal pulses 2+ x2. Heel protectors and SCD's in place. Absent signs of skin breakdown. Vital signs stable. Pt febrile. Md aware. Pan Cx's done previously x1 day, awaiting results. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Actually, my point in this patient is that the pt is getting worse. He's been on antibiotics for the duration of his stay (which is over 3 weeks), and he still is having difficulty being weaned from the ventilator. In fact, he was trach collared for about 2 days, ran into some difficulty, and had to be placed back on the vent. You tell me this isn't suffering? This pt would be ideal for aggressive fluid management. I bet all he'd need were about 4-5 liters of fluid initially, with a maintanance of maybe 200 cc/hr for a few days or so, then adjust maintenance fluids accordingly, while holding all diuretics. I bet he'd be out in a few days. Instead, he's going to languish there until who knows when. He's now considered a "chronic" pt.

Also, when you're doing the procedure, you're not inducing pulmonary edema to the point that he's drowning. It is possible to do so, but that's not the goal, just like it's not the goal to making someone's blood pressure 210/100 when providing pressors to someone who's hypotensive. There's an ideal zone that one would like to reach, and you have to use your own clinical judgement skills. However, exacerbating the ARDS is possible, and when that does happen, you can modify the ventillator settings to support the pt. It's not either/or, black/white. There are shades of gray.

And no, I don't recommend heart transplants to fix pneumonia-related ARDS.

i know... :rotfl: i was being "over the edge"

i guess at the point you mentioned...the pt is already suffering so either take a chance and fix it....or call it quits...

at this point...i don't know that it would really hurt.

diprivan.... no offense, but how long have you worked in the ICU environment?

all you told us what the synopsis of somebody who is trached and failing wean to trach collar, and who is currently febrile despite being on long-term antibiotics for some unknown pathogen.... what does this have to do with fluid management. I suggest you try to think of the problem differently: 1) why is the patient trached 2) why is the patient failing to progress with weaning 3) what underlying co-morbidites are you dealing with.... is this somebody post thoraco-abdominal aneurysm repair who has diaphragmatic failure and therefore will be a difficult wean? or is this somebody with bronchiectasis?....

regardless (i don't want to sound condescending), but i suggest you learn a bit more about critical care and physiology, and I can direct you towards great books, if you'd like.... or even better, you can further your education (since you obviously have a keen interest) by becoming a CRNA, becoming a CCRN/CNS, becoming a CCNP or even going to med school....

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