technofreak

Not if the hospital is a union hospital. Also I have never heard of hospitals paying less based on previous pay. Your current market dictates pay more than anything else as a staff nurse. Executive pay is a little different.

Hi HouTX! Can you please qualify the above. I live/work/play in a major city and the starting salary for an entry management position is about 110-118k. There's no chance for overtime unless you ascertain a second job which is very difficult since you're always responsible for your managing unit. Furthermore, to move up the proverbial ladder one need to continue w/ education. That is, after one's initial MSN, they now need a MBA and maybe even a PhD. Thus not only is one's salary much lower than that of a CRNA but now the education requirement is seemingly greater. However my perspective is from an outsider looking in, so please feel free to clarify or enlighten.

Cali can you please share your age. Are you an older student or are you super young like the op? Thanks for your input btw

This question will be better served on SDN. A few points: 1) I personally would only work part-time while you complete your pre-med requirements. The general requirements are definitely doable but will require a lot of energy especially when you factor in labs. I would also use that extra time to engage in extracurricular activities to boost your CV and secure solid LORs. 2) Do not take your pre-reqs from a community college. Take them at a a 4-year college, period. 3) Study like hell for the MCAT. Although you may feel like you are not prepared or ready to start tackling MCAT-like questions, start tackling them as you complete your prereqs. Don't wait. 4) I would avoid telling your nursing colleagues that you plan on pursuing medicine, they just won't get it, and you may be shunned for it. Do not think people will think you are "smart." 5) Have a REALISTIC plan. I wouldn't rush to take your prereqs just so you can apply. A realistic plan would be 2 years+, especially since you are working. 6) Google postbac premed programs, they may interest you. Some medical schools give you preference if you do well in reputable programs Lastly, good luck :)

I work at a very prestigious hospital. This hospital regularly hires MHA/MBA graduates as clinical managers and directors with no clinical experience whatsoever (unless you count the administration fellowship/residency our hospital sponsors). The reason I was given by an executive was that nurses who move up the corporate ladder have too much loyalty to the clinical staff and that causes "issues" in meetings. The person would not go into detail.

You honestly need to relax, you sound like a complete nut job. People's life experiences shape their beliefs, hence why people vote for different candidates. If you feel like Bernie and Hillary are not the candidates for you, then that is absolutely your prerogative, but please save the faux outrage just because other people's views do not align with yours.

This "study" will never take place, nursing organizations are too busy researching how nursing can be the most trusted profession for the 100th time in a row.

HouTX gave you some really good advice. It seems like you want your cake and eat it too. It's a myth that you can have a 'perfect career' and a "perfect" life. It seems that you are approaching an age where many women start questioning their decisions, especially if they haven't gotten married or had kids. You are not unique in doing so. You have to make a decision, and pick one that you want to focus on. Do you want to apply to CRNA school ASAP or move back to the area that you are from so you can start doing the things you enjoy again, and forging relationships. You are right, that if you pick the latter you may have an issue with getting an LOR for school from your current employer, but that is a decision that you will need to make. Management isn't a terrible career track idea, but you are right in that it is very political. For the sake of rambling, everything in life requires hard work and sacrifice, including relationships. If you you choose to move back home and focus on that, then that is fine too. Indeed, pursuing management may be better for your future relationships because it is more flexible than the CRNA track, at least initially. Let us know what you decide.

I am going to answer that question with a resounding no.

Why aren't you pursuing medicine? Btw if you do decide to pursue nursing definitely go for the BSN for all the reasons mentioned. CRNA 4 Years of College > 1-2 years ICU experience (assuming you can even get an ICU job right after college)> 2-3 years of CRNA school = CRNA (7 years absolute minimum but will most likely take you 9-10 years). 7 years later you will still be "just a nurse" (no offense). Although you will be highly skilled many misanthropes will remind you of "your place," and you will have to do a lot of pride swallowing. Anyone who disagrees with me is not keeping it real, I assure you. Sure CRNAs can work independently but most do not. Just like most NPs don't work independently. An MDA will likely be your boss as a CRNA and depending on the culture of the facility this can be an "okay" thing or a "really bad" thing. Medicine 4 years of college> 4 years of medical school > 3-5 years of residency/fellowships = MD (aka "the boss"). For 1-2 years more of your life you can seriously enjoy a greater diversity of experience and a more rewarding and lucrative career. The above is not to spark a nurse vs physician debate. These are my feelings, one that I wholly believe to be true, and one I wish was advertised before I decided to pursue nursing. If you do decide to pursue nursing, because it is more flexible and less stressful than pursuing medicine, than that is fine and I wish you well in your studies. Many people find nursing to be a rewarding career even though they have to endure A LOT for the paycheck, CRNAs included. If you still want to pursue nursing, I would try to get an externship in the ICU or work as a tech in the ICU, so you can get a position there as soon as you graduate.

Wow, I recently started a new HH gig. The job is prn, I have never done HH before, as all my experience is in acute care. I received three days (8-5) of field orientation and another day to complete a series of HR videos and HLCs. My director seems pretty cool and seems willing to answer any questions that may come my way. I'll keep you guys posted. Monday will be my first day on my own. The biggest thing about HH is the paperwork. There seems to be a different form for every visit.

I listen to public radio A LOT. Last week they had a discussion on Uber. A man actually called the show and commented on the fact that he knew several people who did the same exact thing you proposed above, and apparently they were doing very well because wheelchair-accessible vehicles are difficult to hail in NYC. I think your plan is a good one, but one that is becoming increasingly popular in this new "gig economy" where the common people are attempting to set their own rules. My advice is to keep your overhead very low and minimize your risks. I too am considering a side business that can potentially develop into something that is full-time. Nursing is brutal.

Too many to list. Simply Google "lateral violence nursing," and you will have the answer that you seek.

Really?

Well I guess we are in agreement then. I think the OP case is very obvious and whatever she signed is not a contract, But my post was for others who have signed similar contracts under more favorable conditions. The wording on these documents must be so ripe for these contracts to be enforceable that IMHO most hospital residency contracts WILL NOT PASS THAT MUSTER. That is my whole point. Sure they CAN BE enforceable but based on case review they will not be. Also I don't think the slavery reference is hyperbolic at all, like I said some courts have used the term "indentured servant" to refer to employees who basically have no choice but to work for their employer because leaving would be so prohibitively expensive. While I encourage new grads to read anything before they sign it, when acute care contracts are becoming more prevalent, what realistic option does the new grad have? I despise these contracts because they seem to me more punitive in nature rather than an honest hospitable trying to recoup an unforeseeable expense. If hospitals want employees to stay they should create favorable conditions, writing a few words on a document and having someone who is desperate for a job sign it is unconscionable and illegal MORE OFTEN than not.

Not exactly accurate again. I am kind of familiar with that case and in that case it is very relevant to point out the the person who originally filed the suit was an officer in California. That is, a PUBLIC employee. Federal law specifically allows continued service agreements” with government employees. That law says agreements can require continued service at least equal to three times the length of the training period.” If you don't continue for the required period, you can be made to repay the amount of the additional expenses incurred by the Government in connection with” your training. But, only if you quit—not if you're fired. Klone, my point is that it seems like a lot of seniors members on this site have no qualms about hospitals forcing new grads to sign contracts that haven't not been consistently proven to pass muster in the court of law. A lot of members think these "contracts" are "absolutely legal." This is not wholly accurate, and is FALSE under MOST of the cases based on case studies. Repayment clauses for training provided is absolutely enforceable but only under the right circumstances and under very strict circumstances, and in the private sector absent a noncompete agreement, enforceability is even more tenuous.

Invitale, while the courts have made a distinction between paying for someone's formal education vs hospital/facility-based training (the expense of the latter is more difficult to recoup by the employer from the employee) and some courts have even used the term "indentured servant" to refer to penalty clauses that essentially forces the employee to work for them because leaving would be so prohibitively expensive, signing a contract that contains a repayment clause for training provided is not inherently illegal and if the circumstances are just right IS absolutely enforceable.

Courts have used terms like "indentured servant," when a penalty exist for breaking a contract that seems more punitive in nature than simply the hospital trying to recoup its cost. The author, a JD, does it when deconstructing a case on page 3 in the link below. Untitled Page

To the OP: Your contract” will not pass muster in the court of law and if you wanted to leave in the next hr, I wouldn't worry about it because of everything the previous posters mentioned. To everyone else who has signed a contract: Courts are very willing to protect employer's trade secrets, customer lists, and other similar propriety. These are sometimes termed noncompete agreements. However, repayment clauses for training provided is something new and controversial. MOST courts based on previous argued cases WILL NOT enforce these clauses because training is seen as an employee expense, something that the employer absorbs as a normal part of doing business. There are a minority of courts however who WILL protect investments made in training employees if the agreement is narrowly constructed” and the investment is "significant". This is where the ambiguity lies. What does narrowly constructed mean and what amount is considered significant? From what different employment attorneys have said and reading different cases it seems that these arrangements will most likely NOT be held up in the courts but they CAN BE if the circumstances and the language are just right. The issues are the courts do not want to be used as tools for the strong to persecute the weak (Big well-funded hospital vs Suzie, RN), courts have also acknowledged that their seems to be lower wages built into the calculation for those that require extensive training (Yes, courts have acknowledged that those that do not require as much training can command a higher salary than those that require extensive training and that most employers offer a lower wage for that difference, thus employers are already getting a benefit), and lastly employers must prove" their numbers. I've seen different numbers on AN as a penalty for breaking a contract.” I've seen as low as $2,000 to someone recently posting $25,000. I've also heard of huge numbers being floated around like 100k (not to break a contract but the cost of training a new grad). Hospitals must prove to the courts how they arrived at that number. http://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1254&context=dlj Untitled Page

Hey Klone! Not picking on you but I'm not sure how the website you provided is proof of a contract. Of course, the hospital is calling their required terms a "contract" but I can draft something right now, have two people sign it and call it a contract too (that does not mean that it is entirely enforceable nor does it make it a contract simply because I'm calling it one). Maybe you meant that having new grads sign a document, most healthcare facilities are calling this document a contract, in exchange for training/ a formal residency (I use training very loosely, take the OP's case for example) is not a new phenomenon? Also you seems quite sure that these arrangements "ARE LEGAL," can you please provide any corroboration via actual cases or reputable websites documenting the legalness of these arrangements?

I'm not going to even pretend that I don't roll my eyes at the computer screen as I read some of the text found on AN. You can sense the condescending tone with every word that is being read from some of the members here. Have you guys ever played the guessing game? For example, a new thread is created and depending on topic I sometime guess which member(s) will respond. My favorite is the NETY threads, I like to call some of the responders the usual suspects. Those are the responders that vehemently deny all aspect of NETY, and has very sharp words reserved for those that dare to challenge them. LOL Anywho, a special shout-out to Esme12 and TheCommuter, those two are the bomb.com :) and are my favorite posters. They make their opinions known w/o telling other posters how wrong they are in the process.

1. Employment prospects are VERY tough for new attorneys. Way worst than new grad NPs IMHO. It's REALLY, really bad. (The Employment Rate Falls Again for Recent Law School Graduates - Businessweek Job market for would-be lawyers is even bleaker than it looks, analysis says No New Lawyers! Economy Can't Handle Them | The Fiscal Times) 2. Law school is not like nursing where a "degree is a degree". You seem to recognize that somewhat in your original post but I still feel like you are underestimating how much the law school you attend matters. You should be aiming for a T14 school. Think Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Yale, Duke, NYU et al. These schools are VERY difficult to get into, and although you stated that tuition didn't matter, if granted admissions, expect to pay $150K+. 3. Although attorneys who attend TOP law programs earn TOP pay, this is also more true than not, if you pursue corporate law, this is not an easy road. Grades matter a lot! And unless you attend a T3 school where they don't grade their students so therefore you are not ranked, please note that if you attend other lower tier schools, you will be RANKED, and corporate law firms will ask for your ranking amongst classmates at interviews. Also know that some law firms only recruit from certain schools (especially those with the top pay that you are seeking). I think your experience is definitely something unique that you bring to the table, but law firms are equally concerned about what school you graduated from and your grades. Additionally, biglaw firms that offer the best pay compensation are also interested in whether you made law review. Law review is very competitive. I think law is an interesting field of study but one that comes with a lot of risks. If you can get into a top program your chances at succeeding increases exponentially. I would not recommend law school to anyone who cannot get into a T14 program, irrespective of their experience. The job market for new grad attorneys is deplorable. Please visit www.top-law-schools.com/ if you haven't done so already.

The fact that you want to own your own practice, means you appreciate a high level of autonomy and, among other things, may want freedom, status, and the ability to work and make decisions alone. If you go with nursing you will be wholly disappointed. As much as it pains for me to say this because I am a nurse, nurses are subordinates to the medical field. We endure frequent schedule changes, lack of appreciation by superiors and colleagues, short staffing, and poor working conditions. While the aforementioned describes the plight of staff nurses and you are seeking advice on becoming an entrepreneur, what many have not stated and what GrnTea alluded to, is you will have to put in the years establishing credibility in order to become a successful nurse entrepreneur. In layman's terms, you are going to have be cool playing subordinate before "calling the shots." Additionally after years of hard work, your "shot-calling" will be limited by legislation as to what nurses can and cannot do, and also by the lack of collaborative efforts between other health-care professionals who feel that nurses are best-suited playing the subordinate role. Dentists seems to enjoy the autonomous/entrepreneurial climate that you seek, however the biggest deterring factor in opening up your own place as a dentist is the high overhead. You stated that your parents are dentist, can you work for/with them? You also stated that mouths don't interest you, as someone who's currently in a professison in which she absolutely detest, I applaud you for recognizing the importance of liking what you do. You are absolutely correct in you assessment on the current state of optometry. To add fuel to the fire, you should include limited choice of schools and high tuition, surprisingly low pay for a doctorally prepared professional, and decreasing job opportunities. Not to mention, you will have fierce competition as an independent optometrist from your fellow colleagues and big-box stores that can afford to offer steep discounts. However job satisfaction is high among optometrists. Most optometrists enjoy what they do, it seems to be a low stress environment, and many optometrists practice well into retirement age. My optometrist is 67 :). Not to mention you stated you enjoy this line of work, this is huge! My vote is to take the required prerequisites and go to medical school and become an ophthalmologist. While you have not investigated this route, medical school does come with a lot of obstacles, the most obvious is the time-commitment, but the rewards are unparalleled. You will command a high salary, respect, and most importantly the ability to truly call the shots.

I say there are bigger things to worry about in life. It's beautiful outside in most places, start enjoying the weather and stop worrying about what other people are doing or saying, especially when it doesn't affect you.

I'm not a manager nor do I desire to become an FNP, however $50,000 is awfully low for a managerial position IMHO. I don't think this "hurts" your chances at becoming an FNP, however I'm not sure it will enhance your FNP role, assuming you want to be a clinician (FNPs wear many hats and do not only work as clinicians, some are business managers and if that's the route you take, then the position will most certainly enhance it). If you do decide to take the position, have you considered working PRN as a bedside nurse to keep your skills current? Are you currently enrolled in your FNP program? If so, do you think you can work as manager full-time and attend school? Becoming a manager is 24-hour job.