rntracy1

Yes, you're right. I haven't found it to be the case either, where programs focus so much on the writing, research, and theory aspect to the exclusion of teaching any skills. Now, I will have to admit, I didn't learn every single skill I would be using in my practice, there are some that just aren't practical and/or available to learn while in school, as well as some that you may have done once or twice but need some "refinement" so to speak. I may have sounded like I was implying that the "intellectual" was more important than the skills. In fact, I'm sure I did, but that is not what I meant. Obviously being able to perform a skill is very important in a profession that is very skills oriented. I just felt that toward the beginning of the thread, some were implying that the intellectual aspect of nursing wasn't as important. I think they are equally important. In fact, I think skills are so important and they take time to hone. More time than you can possible get in nursing school. You can check off that you placed a Foley, but it takes time to do it with perfect, sterile, precision. Obviously we can't check off IV insertion (at least not in my state) until we are licensed. But inserting 1 or 2 IVs doesn't make you skilled. It is definitely something that some people are good at it and others just aren't. It takes time to be good at IVs. So, even if you learn a skill in school, it's going to take time to perfect it. That is going to take experience on the job. I guess I didn't express that in my responses. I agree with you about what constitutes intellectual activity. However, even if you can't find articles on the exact issue you want to research, you can still find something to learn about without taking the easy way out, right? LOL. (meaning, something that not everyone and their brother has written about, LOL). I mean, as a school nurse, I still like to read and research other issues that don't pertain to school nursing. But yes, performing skills in our practice is VERY important. I just feel that it isn't the end of the world if we didn't get a chance to perform every skill while still in school. We are going to be honing those skills for a long time to come. That's my feeling, I know everyone doesn't agree with that.

WOW!! I hope the nurse who called you those horrible names got written up too. Here's mine. Like you, I get bad headaches. Migraines. I was an agency nurse, scheduled for a 3-11 shift. I took imitrex before reporting for my shift. It works within 1-2 hours and I took it around 2ish so I wasn't too concerned. During report, I was holding my forehead, because my head hurt. I told the reporting nurse, "I am listening to you, I just have a horrible migraine and I'm waiting for my medication to kick in." Which it finally did. Of course she was fine with that. OMG, you poor thing, that must be awful. She was so sympathetic. Ha ha. Well, then, the END OF THE WORLD happened, LOL. I got a call from my agency, I was written up because I forgot to change 1 patient's Duragesic patch. I changed like 4 of them, plus like 20 lidoderm patches. But, the reason I forgot her patch, according to the nurse, was because I wasn't paying attention to her report. She told my agency that I was just sitting there with my eyes closed and seemed like I'd rather be ANYWHERE else but there. I was like, "SERIOUSLY?? That's what she said?" I so wanted to confront her. It wasn't like that at all. I was like, she KNEW I had a migraine. I was soooooo mad. LOL

londonflo, you are so right. Nurses have worked so hard to classify nursing as a profession rather than a trade. I mean, just the hours required for the courses in the ADN program is more than any other Associate degree program. When I was in the ADN program, I was trying to get my son into the daycare on campus. I was told I couldn't get the reduced student rate because I wasn't a full time student!! My director of nursing had to write a letter stating that, although I wasn't earning the typical 12 credits full time students earn, I was actually in school more hours than they were. Our clinicals were 7-3, 2 days per week and we got 2 credits. That's more than a full time load right there. Now add in my other courses and lab. My son was accepted into the daycare program, but only because of the letter. It's hard to explain to people that 9 credits are a lot more hours than a typical associate degree student taking 9 credits. We as nurses need to proud of our accomplishments and continue to fight for respect as the professionals we are. Anyone can learn a skill. It isn't just nurses. For example, I am a school nurse and I was co-signing orders with a nurse at another school one morning. I informed my principal I would be a few minutes late, we have 1 hour to give our meds. So an 8:30am med can be given by 9:30am. I got there about 9:10 or 9:15 and my principal informed me that she and the counselor had given the meds. Uhhhhhh, what!!?? Anyone can open a bottle and give a pill. Did they give the CORRECT med to the CORRECT child? Did they give the CORRECT dosage? Who is supposed to sign off on that med now, that they legally weren't supposed to give? (They have spare keys to give to a sub nurse if I am not in the building, that's how they were able to get into my med cabinet). Did they watch the child for side effects/adverse reactions? Did the child have the desired response to the medication? They performed the action of giving a pill, that's it. And I was supposed to sign for a med I didn't give, and hope for the best? It takes more than being able to perform a task. I can teach my husband how to insert a Foley catheter or hang an IV bag, that doesn't mean he understands WHY he's doing it or the implications of what he's doing. Susie 2310 said, "have you ever heard of the nursing process". Yes, I've heard of the nursing process, they teach us that in school. They focus on that because it is an important part of nursing. They focus on it more than learning skills, which was my entire point. Someone else here said (I'm not going to dig to find out who said it) I'm paraphrasing here, "I don't think about the duties of an RN compared to the LPN." Hmmmmm. So, you've never had to IV push a med for an LPN on the floor because they weren't allowed to do so? You never had to hang a blood transfusion for an LPN on the floor because they aren't allowed to do so? In my state LPNs aren't allowed to do those things, so it's important that as an RN, I am aware of their limitations in practice. LPNs cannot do patient discharge teaching. Have you ever had to draw blood from a PICC or central line because the phlebotomist isn't allowed to do so? I have. I had LPN students at my hospital and they came to me with a checklist of skills they had to be checked off on. RN students don't have to be checked off on skills. They gave us a list of skills that we should try to perform, but we didn't fail if we weren't checked off on them. As an RN, it's pretty "misinformed" to not understand the difference between the duties of an RN and LPN. In the school setting LPNs cannot do Epi Pen training or write up nursing care plans. LPNs work under RN supervision. If you are delegating to an LPN, it would be in your best interest to understand their scope of practice. You cannot delegate something that is not within their scope of practice. Just FYI. I'm with you londonflo, education is never wasted. I'm not sure which courses nurses have to take that "they don't need" but I feel everyone can benefit from education. When I did the RN-BSN program, all I did was write papers. Research and write. Watch webinars and write. Interview nurses and write. I feel I learned from all of it. You have some great insight and your input is greatly appreciated.

In my BSN program, we had to enter our papers into a program that made sure they were properly cited and that nothing was plagiarized. No more than 30% of our paper could be quoted from other works, and the whole reference section was included in that 30%. I will get a lot of backlash for all my admirers here but, I agree with the universities going through the dissertations to make sure they are formatted and cited correctly. First of all, doctoral level candidates should be formatting their papers correctly, but references need to cited correctly to avoid plagiarism. That can be a big issue. I am assuming that is what you are referring to when you say cited correctly.

Ha ha, LOL. I meant to say college level writing and formatting. LOL. My mind was going faster than my hands could type. And, I obviously didn't proofread my work. LOL.

I feel it is you who is misinformed. I was responding to llg who was responding Hoosier's comment about nursing schools being more focused on APA format than teaching skills. Hoosier was implying that learning the skills is more important than formatting a paper, and my response was that it was not. I may have been a bit extreme in saying that "if your sole focus is on skills" there are others who can perform skills, but I was trying to make the point that a skill can be learned fairly quickly and easily. You can't even learn to insert an IV until you become a licensed RN. You may not get the chance to see the delivery of a baby during L&D rotation. If you want to learn skills in nursing school, you have to seek them out too. There isn't always something going on during a particular rotation that gives you the opportunity to learn that skill. When you do a psych rotation, you aren't going to see every single psych disorder and be able to practice dealing with it. Some skills you have to learn on the job. You aren't going to come in knowing how to do everything. Susie2310 said: "In the ADN program I attended, the ability to write and comprehend at the level of College English papers and to do basic math at the level of arithmetic/elementary algebra was presumed as students had completed these prerequisite courses." Then why do so many people have such a problem with it? If every student came in to the program with this already mastered, why would they be complaining that nursing programs are focused on it rather than teaching skills? If everyone is already proficient with APA format and basic math and elementary algebra, then they wouldn't be so focused on it. Everyone would already know it and be doing it automatically. I did college level English in 1989 and went into nursing school in 2002, so it had been a few years since I had APA format. Maybe others, like me, need a little reminding. The only point I was trying to make is that nursing is more than learning a skill. Skills are important, but there isn't always an opportunity to learn every skill while in school. Writing and communicating is also a big part of nursing.

I have to say, I agree with you and macawake MSN. I got frustrated at times with APA formatting and citing my references, but I found my instructors really didn't deduct if my margins were slightly off or my reference indentations weren't perfect. Like you say, they wanted us to try. As long as I was putting forth a solid effort, there weren't any problems. The thing I don't think most RNs understand is, it's the critical thinking, theory, college level writing and formatting, grammar and math skills, etc that separate us from LPNs. Nothing against LPNs at all, but if you are solely focused on hands on skills, LPNs and CNAs can perform most those skills. As professional nurses, we need to focus more on the reasons why we are performing those skills, the patient's response to the intervention and patient outcomes. That's my opinion on the subject for what it's worth. You can learn how to insert a Foley in 30 minutes. Everyone's reason for needing one, their response to it, and their outcome is going to be different.

Expecting that debt to be paid off in 10 yrs is crazy. That's 2500.00 per month on a monthly salary of 5k before taxes. That leaves her almost nothing to live on. Now, for the PSLF program, we have to assume she can get a job that meets all the criteria. It can be done, but man. I think I would go see a lawyer and see what my options are. In fact, my SL debt is far less and I think that's exactly what I am going to do.

I totally agree with you caffeinePOQ4HPRN. Not everyone can ONLY take out what they need to pay for school. I got pregnant at 19 and my son was born right when I turned 20. I worked 32 hrs per week, 3rd shift as a CNA, then went to school when I got out of work in the morning. I had to pay rent, food, car insurance, utilities, health insurance, etc. You all don't need me to tell you about the cost of living, and caring for an infant, as a single mom, on the salary of a CNA, while going to school. So yes, it was VERY tempting to take that extra money to help out with my bills, clothing for my child, medical expenses, child care costs, etc. My guess is that OP also deferred some of her loans, which means that interest kept accruing and capitalizing. That's what happened in my case. And I don't know where anyone gets the idea that the interest rate on student loans is good. Mine is 8.5%. I don't consider that good at all. So, yes, it's easy to sit behind a computer screen and judge, because that's not what YOU would do, but unless/until you are in someone else's situation, you have no idea what you would do. Thank you for your compassion CaffeinePOQ4HPRN.

WOW! It almost sounds like you wrote MY story, or I wrote yours. LOL. I too thought mine was bad. Mine may be slightly different than yours, but very similar. I currently owe 108k. I too made the same mistake, as a young adult, of going to a private university for a degree in another field. I also feel that, not only do they not educate you about the perils and pitfalls of student loans, but they actually encourage young people to take out as much as possible. They say, "don't worry about that now. When you get your degree, you will be making enough money to pay that back, and the interest rates are practically nothing." Practically nothing!!?? Mine is 8.5%!! That's a LOT!! And the interest capitalizes so it becomes part of the principal, like a credit card, and it just keeps going up and up. Add that to all the deferments and forbearances, and my balance just kept getting bigger and bigger. I see no way out of this right now. I owe more in SLs than I do on my house! I will have to look into the PSLF. I work in an inner city, low income, school district as a school nurse. Good luck to you mmc and to the OP. We've all got a tough road ahead. It's definitely designed to keep you in debt.

OMG! (Pun intended). I would probably be fired then because I do that ALL the time. Ha ha. It helps to make a point and if I received a write up, I'd PROBABLY continue to do it out of habit. LOL.

No, sorry, you are mistaken. Focalin XR can be opened up and its contents sprinkled on food or in a cup of water too. When I first got that order from the doc I was nervous about it due to the extended release, but I looked it up, and it can be opened up because it is not the capsule that makes it extended release, it is the actual sprinkles inside that are extended release.

We are not talking about 5th and 6th grade students, nor are we talking about special needs students with 1:1 nursing services. We are talking about, mostly, students in grades PreK- 2nd sometimes 3rd grade. If I can get a hold of a parent to bring in clothes, that is my FIRST choice all the time. But then, am I the only person in the entire school building who can pick up a phone and make a phone call? I was doing the fluoride program (for those of you who know what that is- for those who don't, don't ask, it is stupid) and a 1st grade student wet himself. The teacher came to me, in one of the classrooms I was in and said, "Nurse Tracy thank God we FINALLY found you! We have been looking all over for you. So and so had an accident." Ok, so you spent HOW LONG looking all over the building for ME when you could have picked up a phone yourself and called the parent to bring him some clothes. Our point is, the nurse isn't the ONLY person capable of picking up a phone, getting a child some clothes, bringing them to the bathroom and instructing them on how to change and how to clean themselves up, and if YOU would be accused of molesting a child, what makes you think that WE wouldn't? Just because we are nurses doesn't mean we can just undress children, clean them up, and do whatever everyone else cannot do.

The teacher's aides are responsible for cleaning up the students at our school too, BUT THEY DON'T! I was dealing with a parent and her child's meds, you know, the things that require a nursing license, and the Aide brought up a student with wet pants. I told her that I would be a little bit with this parent but she could use my bathroom and I would give her some wipes. She said, "I am on my break right now." On your break! Really?! Suck it up! I am lucky if I even get to pee during the day and you are going to sit there on my cot and do NOTHING while I do EVERYTHING, because you are on your break. I told her, "that's ok. I'm sure he will still be wet after your break is over."

Gosh, here too. The one thing I DID put my foot down on though was cleaning dog poo off of shoes. I went to the teacher's meeting and told them, "cleaning dog poo off of shoes does not require a medical license. The only reason you would send that to me is because you feel it is beneath you. If you do not want to clean it, what makes you think I do? If you don't want to do it, give the child paper towels or send them to the bathroom and have them clean it, but don't send them to me. I don't clean dog poo off of shoes!" I told the child, there's the sink, go ahead and clean it. She said, "you actually want ME to clean it?" I said, "Yeah! It's your shoe. Why should I clean it?" She said, "My mom told me to come to school and have someone clean it." I said, "Your shoe was like that before you left home this morning?!" She said, "Yeah, it happened while I was playing outside yesterday and my mom told me to have someone here clean it for me." I said, "Well, someone IS cleaning it. From now on, if you don't want to do it, mom needs to do it for you. ok?" She said, "ok, I will tell her." I was soooo hoping I would get a phone call from the mom, but I didn't.