wouldn't it be easier

Observations:

1) the ones who whine about the BSN are always the ones who don't have it, which just makes the case for the BSN stronger. If more education will get these nurses to stop their crying then I'm all for it.

2) I sit on a hiring panel and I can tell you right now, experience doesn't matter nearly as much as the degree does, because it's ALL. ABOUT. MONEY!!!!! Get it through your heads. Insurers reimburse providers MORE for BSN educated nursing staff!!!!!! Do I agree with this? Sometimes. Do I think some CNAs and LPNs make better nurses than BSNs? Sometimes. Am I positive that this requirement will become the standard, no matter how much you LPNs & ADNs cry about it? YES!!!!!

So you non BSNs, your time is better spent gettin' ir DONE, then sobbing about how unfair life is, avoiding accountability for your choices, blaming better educated people, and picking apart your losing argument that less education is somehow better than more education. You could have spent this time and typing on filling out apps to BSN programs.

This is exactly the lack of respect I am talking about. It did nothing to add to the debate and was downright condescending. Debate does not equal whining. Stating an opinion does not mean we are "crying." I have an ADN and in no way regret going that route. I'm doing the RN to BSN as are many others. Just because we don't agree that it should be a requirement, does not mean we are "crying" about it. We are stating our opinion. Even if some people do complain, I see nothing wrong with that. This is the appropriate place to do it. No one needs your condescension.

The fact that the minimums are the same is a supportable claim, critical thinking would demand that some evidence be presented to say that overall, BSN programs have more clinical hours, without that, the only thing we can say with certainty is that the minimums are the same.

Just as there is variety in the quality of education among universities, there is variety among community colleges as well. My community college had more than the minimum clinical hours required by state law. We had clinicals in the summer as well.

As far as critical thinking, I will concede that apparently some people need extra classes for that. However, I tend to look at critical thinking as an ability that is innate. Maybe it's possible to learn it with a little more practice, but I don't believe I GAINED my critical thinking skills from classes. I USED critical thinking in gen eds, but didn't gain it from them.

Sometimes people are surprised when I say I went to a regular 4 year university for my nursing degree. I try not to let it bother me. Another discussion is the online programs. Get ready for a lot of flack for that especially masters level.

I think a lot of the public believes NPs obtained their degree online in under a year.

And there are actual programs where you can get a MSN in 6 months online. It's embarrassing but that's our profession.

And sometimes I look at management or other masters level nurses and I think maybe a higher level of education is not really needed.

All the certs and titles after your name are embarrassing to me to. Who cares that I have a bsn or msn? It's ridiculous.

There is currently a moratorium on expanding BSN programs in my state due to limited clinical availability, ADN programs can still apply for expansion.

While clinicals occur at more than just hospitals, students to hospital bed ratios is probably a decent way of gauging the availability and flexibility of clinical options. The local ADN program has a total of 56 students to a hospital clinical site of 250 beds. One of our state BSN programs has 100 BSN students per 300 beds, another is one of 4 BSN programs in the same city with about 450 BSN students combined who share about 1400 beds. Because of this, not all clinical hours are the same. With more availability, it's easier to give students more direct care experience and to start it sooner, as well as to be more flexible in integrating classroom and clinical experience. Due to the constraints of clinical spots for BSN students, direct 'full immersion' experience is delayed and students are more likely to be limited to observation or paired or even tripled up with other students.

I think you misunderstood my other point. While it's more likely ADN students will graduate having already spent a significant amount of time taking a full load independently, BSN students may be able to exceed to ADN students down the road, so the initial investment by hospitals in longer orientations may be worth it.

Thank you for the clarification, appreciated. I agree that with more and more programs of any flavor, the availability of hospital venues for clinical experiences is shrinking. Thank you for making it clear that BSN program students aren't getting fewer clinical hours than ADN students s a rule, just that there are fewer BSN programs in your area.

I think you misunderstood my other point. While it's more likely ADN students will graduate having already spent a significant amount of time taking a full load independently, BSN students may be able to exceed to ADN students down the road, so the initial investment by hospitals in longer orientations may be worth it.

I don't see the "more likely" in any of this, though.

I just graduated with an adn, which took me 2 years to get because I had to take a certain class to move onto the next even though I was only taking 8-12 credits at a time. Before entering the nursing program, I earned an AA in Liberal Arts which took 2 years, but I was taking 15-19 credits a semester. During my first 2 years I was able to earn a liberal arts degree and take all the pre-reqs for the local BSN and ADN program. Just because it took 4 years doesn't mean it was equal to 4 years earning a BSN, if it was it would have been more like 17+ credits a semester for all 4 years not 2. So now I have ~120 credits, 2 associates degrees and in a BSN program. I can't equate the 4 years earning an associates is the same as 4 years earning a bachelors because the bachelors route is way more time consuming during those 4 years.

I just graduated with an adn which took me 2 years to get because I had to take a certain class to move onto the next even though I was only taking 8-12 credits at a time. Before entering the nursing program, I earned an AA in Liberal Arts which took 2 years, but I was taking 15-19 credits a semester. During my first 2 years I was able to earn a liberal arts degree and take all the pre-reqs for the local BSN and ADN program. Just because it took 4 years doesn't mean it was equal to 4 years earning a BSN, if it was it would have been more like 17+ credits a semester for all 4 years not 2. So now I have ~120 credits, 2 associates degrees and in a BSN program. I can't equate the 4 years earning an associates is the same as 4 years earning a bachelors because the bachelors route is way more time consuming during those 4 years.[/quote']

4 years is 4 years period. I simply think it is misleading to people who think "oh, I can just go to school for 2 years and become an RN." I really believe the general population believes this; so when they hear another nurse has a Bachelor's degree, they think that nurse actually has 2 more full years of core nursing classes and clinicals.

This is somewhat off topic, but just to make it clear that I am not anti- education, I actually think nursing programs should be 1 year longer, both theory and clinical. And believe me, I know most people think Im crazy for that belief. By "year", I mean about 24 more credit hours, so Im talking both ADN and BSN programs alike.

I went for my ADN first because PELL grant was enough to cover the entire cost. I couldn't afford to pay anything out of my own pocket. My husband was just finished with his schooling. We had three children. We were broke. We were on WIC & food stamps. I sure as heck couldn't afford to take out student loans!

I'm looking now at RN-BSN programs. I still need something cheap & preferably all online.

Thank you for the clarification, appreciated. I agree that with more and more programs of any flavor, the availability of hospital venues for clinical experiences is shrinking. Thank you for making it clear that BSN program students aren't getting fewer clinical hours than ADN students s a rule, just that there are fewer BSN programs in your area.

Actually, that's not what I said. Clinical opportunities are far more geographically dispersed than BSN programs are, which tend to geographically consolidate RN students. Dispersing RN students, and RN programs, to better match clinical availability is something ADN programs already do. Moving forward, we need to make clinical opportunities more flexible not less, which is why many states have already been moving towards a model where BSN curriculums spread out to the CC's.

I don't see the "more likely" in any of this, though.

You'll find plenty of threads here that refer to this phenomenon. Our hiring freeze on BSN's to save money on orienting was system wide as this difference was noted at multiple hospitals spread out over 4 states.

I have never heard of six figure debt just from one BSN degree.

I have never heard of six figure debt just from one BSN degree.

I have. For profit schools.