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toomuchbaloney said:

Definitely not tolerated.  The fascists expected payback from patriots and that's why they targeted them first.  We talked about the pruning of the military leadership that began immediately upon Trump's swearing in.  Remember when they fired the commander of the Greenland base after Vance visited and made his contentious remarks and the commander tried to reassure the host country the next day? 

I recently asked an active duty army what he would do if/when he was expected to use deadly force on American citizens.  He laughed and said that would be an illegal order.  I replied that obviously it would be illegal but what will you do? He stopped laughing and didn't really answer.  It was clear that he was thinking about that in context of current events. 

The members of military needs to think of how they will respond when they are asked to participate in crimes because that is the trajectory the administration is creating for our military.  Some of them are probably OK with the idea of shooting Americans protesting the Trump administration.  That's been sufficiently justified for them even though it violates the constitution. The spin is dizzying. They hear casual mention of violence as a means to achieve domestic social bliss on the preferred media channel of military installations.  Just recently that media outlet casually suggested we could kill homeless Americans or bomb the UN.  Years ago, we would have called that kind of thing radicalization... if they were Muslims rather than members of our military. 

Even maga rocks and Fox-trained cultists are capable of recognizing that incompetent leadership = dead soldiers. I'm not convinced that hegseth understands that you don't piss off the men and women who shoot guns for a living. His ideological purge might just have some unforeseen (to him) consequences. Remember fragging?

From my days as a peacenik: what if they gave a war and nobody came 

heron said:

Even maga rocks and Fox-trained cultists are capable of recognizing that incompetent leadership = dead soldiers. I'm not convinced that hegseth understands that you don't piss off the men and women who shoot guns for a living. His ideological purge might just have some unforeseen (to him) consequences. Remember fragging?

From my days as a peacenik: what if they gave a war and nobody came 

That would be the best outcome, wouldn't it? I'm not certain that is possible in 2025 USA. This country is very committed to use of force to attain goals or objectives.  

9/24/25 - Nearly 8 In 10 Voters Say The United States Is In A Political Crisis, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Optimism Sinks For Freedom Of Speech Being Protected In The U.S. | Quinnipiac University Poll https://share.Google/3JMylK95aPYRVZkeX

Rut row

Quote

Views of the country's direction tend to be fairly stable, but major events sometimes shake partisans' feelings about the state of the country, even when their party is in power. Democrats, for example, were more likely to say the U.S. was headed the wrong way after the Supreme Court in June 2022 overturned Roe v. Wade, the landmark decision that established a federal right to abortion. Democrat Joe Biden was president.

But the GOP shift in optimism, especially among younger Republicans and GOP women, is noteworthy for its scale. The drop in Republicans who see the country headed in the right direction is bigger than the decline between October 2020 and December 2020, after President Donald Trump, a Republican, lost his reelection bid. It's more similar in scope to the decline that occurred in the first two months of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Among Republicans younger than 45, the decline is particularly glaring: 61% say the country is headed in the wrong direction, a spike of 30 percentage points since June, the last time the question was asked.

It will be interesting to see how the events of recent such as the impending government shutdown with the threat of reduction of force if this happens, the economy, and the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the subsequent left-right battles shapes the polls to come.

Maybe it's my imagination but I think the bad mood since the shooting has affected our patients.  Our customer service scores are down and they are acting very irritable.  LOL

Tweety said:

It will be interesting to see how the events of recent such as the impending government shutdown with the threat of reduction of force if this happens, the economy, and the assassination of Charlie Kirk and the subsequent left-right battles shapes the polls to come.

Maybe it's my imagination but I think the bad mood since the shooting has affected our patients.  Our customer service scores are down and they are acting very irritable.  LOL

Very interesting. Where was the quote from?

mtmkjr said:

Very interesting. Where was the quote from?

It was from the Quinnipiac poll I shared. 

The support will continue to peel away from Trump like skin on an onion until only the most indoctrinated remain.  This is what the history of fascism in the world shows us.  So far, Trump has been unoriginal in his efforts.  

mtmkjr said:

Very interesting. Where was the quote from?

Sorry.  I thought I posted the article.  I used another poll different from TMB's.  It was published on the 19th which I'm not sure reflects the widespread support for Kirk and the right and left fight afterwards.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/what-a-new-poll-shows-about-where-americans-think-the-country-is-heading

toomuchbaloney said:

It was from the Quinnipiac poll I shared. 

The support will continue to peel away from Trump like skin on an onion until only the most indoctrinated remain.  This is what the history of fascism in the world shows us.  So far, Trump has been unoriginal in his efforts.  

It was a different poll which I clarified above.  Lack of support or approval of Trump doesn't seem to translate to his lack of popularity.  If he ran against a Democrat today, I bet he would win.  Logic doesn't function here.  People vote for him no matter what he does.

An example and I'm too lazy to find a the source but I heard on NPR despite crime dropping in major cities, the general public feels crime is on the rise.  8/10 Republicans approve of Trump sending in the military.   

Again, I'm not sure where the disconnect between truth of crime dropping as reported by legacy media and the public's perception on both sides it's on the rise comes from.  But I think it comes from the right saying things like "war ravaged Portland" where he's sending troops.

edit:  I found the article I listened to on their podcast.  

https://www.npr.org/2025/09/27/nx-s1-5553536/npr-ipsos-law-enforcement-poll-national-guard

 https://www.npr.org/2025/09/27/nx-s1-5555381/trump-sending-troops-portland

Tweety said:

It was a different poll which I clarified above.  Lack of support or approval of Trump doesn't seem to translate to his lack of popularity.  If he ran against a Democrat today, I bet he would win.  Logic doesn't function here.  People vote for him no matter what he does.

An example and I'm too lazy to find a the source but I heard on NPR despite crime dropping in major cities, the general public feels crime is on the rise.  8/10 Republicans approve of Trump sending in the military.   

Again, I'm not sure where the disconnect between truth of crime dropping as reported by legacy media and the public's perception on both sides it's on the rise comes from.  But I think it comes from the right saying things like "war ravaged Portland" where he's sending troops.

edit:  I found the article I listened to on their podcast.  

https://www.npr.org/2025/09/27/nx-s1-5553536/npr-ipsos-law-enforcement-poll-national-guard

 https://www.npr.org/2025/09/27/nx-s1-5555381/trump-sending-troops-portland

Yes. Conservative voters believe things which have little relationship to reality when it comes to Trump.  

The disconnect is intentional and is driven by the media reporting of right wing rhetoric as if the rhetoric is as valuable as data or evidence.  

GrumpyRN said:

On British soil the army shot civilians - Northern Ireland.

On American soil troops shot civilians - Kent University.

So don't hold out too much hope for armed forces "doing the right thing". It's too ingrained in them to obey orders.

 

Well of course. How else am I supposed to get information. Sorry, propaganda.??

Can't trust Hegseth to keep me in the chat group indefinitely.

Actually, it's more concerning that you don't keep up with them. You seem happy to allow the leaders to do what they want with no oversight.

I agree. That's why I make the military uncomfortable now by asking them these questions in public places. I want them to think about it now,  before they are asked to violate the law.  

There is no person in the Trump administration who is credible or should be believed.  Not one.  

GrumpyRN said:

On British soil the army shot civilians - Northern Ireland.

On American soil troops shot civilians - Kent University.

So don't hold out too much hope for armed forces "doing the right thing". It's too ingrained in them to obey orders.

The National Guard at Kent wasn't ordered to shoot anyone.  So, your isolated example from 50+ years ago falls flat.

And, the false narrative that Trump is going to have civilians shot, along with the name calling him and others as Nazi's and Fascists leads to assassinations and assassination attempts.  

I'm sure military folks laugh and then get quiet and uncomfortable when someone asks them about shooting civilians is because once they realize it's not a joke they're being cautious interacting with what they see as an unbalanced and irrational person.

GrumpyRN said:

Actually, it's more concerning that you don't keep up with them. You seem happy to allow the leaders to do what they want with no oversight.

Sure.  As if you or anyone else has any clue about the rules the press in the Pentagon has to follow except for what you just recently read about this issue.