Sekar

Watch out! We have facts posted here! This is intolerable. Who allowed the facts to be posted? Where is the hype? Where is the fear? Where is the propaganda? :chuckle There are the facts folks, read them and be at ease. Your overtime pay is safe.

Test Post, I seem to be having trouble and I want to see if this gets through OK.

All fecal matter aside, research the issues that are important to you. All of the issues, not just nursing. See which candidate or party best meets your stance on the issues. That should be the candidate you vote for in the upcoming election. You probably won't find anyone who meets all of your needs, so you'll have to settle for the one who comes the closest. I could use this time to plug for my candidate, but I won't do that. I just urge you to do the research and vote according to your best judgement, don't let your precious vote go to waste. So many have fought, bled, & died to give that right to vote. Please use it.

Jaaaman, you are wasting your time. You are attempting to clear things up by posting the facts. But, you are quoting facts and the last thing the liberals on this board are interested in is facts. They dress up propaganda, half-truths, and fear as facts and tout that mess around to try and get their candidate elected. Go read the "Nurses for Bush" threads and you'll see what I'm talking about. Emotions ran rampant and the facts posted by the conservatives were generally ignored or worse, turned into personal attacks that were touted as "facts" by the liberals. Sadly the bulk of our profession appears to be made up of liberals, at least from what I see on this board. That being the case, it's no wonder we never seem to get ahead as a profession. Oh well. Wear your flak vest and Kevlar helmet, you're going to need it to protect you from the incoming liberal fire you're going to receive. I'd loan you mine, but I need them.

When I was in the first Gulf War we provided medical care not only to the wounded Americans & Allies, we also provided to the wounded enemy, and the civilians who were wounded by the war (yes, sadly it happens) and those who were brutalized by their own people. That is standard practice for military field medical facilities, and still in practice today. In fact we saw far more of that last catagory than other catagory of patients while we were there. We cared for their wounds, delivered their babies, and fed them our rations so that they would have something to eat. These people weren't brutalized by us "evil Americans" but by the Iraqi government. What I saw dealt out by Iraqis to Iraqis was horrible beyond all the war inflicted wounds I treated. How can a government treat its own people like that? How can anyone question removing a demon like Saddam Hussein from power? Now it's not a government but the "insurgents" (translated terrorists) who are doing it their own people. I don't think we need God's forgiveness, they do. I think history is going to judge us somewhat differently than some here do, but then I've seen alot of it with my own eyes, not filtered & distorted through the liberal media. Put the blame where it is due, on the terrorists and religeous fanatics who feel it their right to wantonly murder & terrorize their own people, and not on us. Our soldiers are the best in the world and they are doing a very difficult job in nearly impossible conditions. They will get the job done if given the support they need, both from our government and our people.

I have to agree with tweety here. A Med-Surg floor, 1 RN, 1 LPN, 1 CNA with 12 patients just doesn't seem to be that big a deal. I've certainly covered far more patients with the same staffing on Med Surg floors. I'd find that a problem in an ICU, to be certain, but not a Med Surg floor. I find it odd that in "team nursing" they each took x number of patients and provided total care to those patients. That kind of negates the idea of team nursing. In true team nursing they would have worked on all of the patients as a team. I don't think that in a true team nursing environment, this incident would have as great a chance of happening as it did in a total care environment. Regardless, the LPN in question accepted assignment for a certain number patients to provide total patient care to those patients. That makes her responsible for those patients, end of discussion. She was sloppy, she failed to check on the patient for 3-4 hours and the patient died because of her failure to do her job. She is, or was, a licensed nurse and fully responsible for her own duties and deserved to be fired. The RN, who certainly has questionable supervisory skills, got reprimanded probably in her permanent record and perhaps even had the incident report to the BON. She deserved the reprimand she got but does not deserve to get fired over the screw up of another licensed nurse. One could easily put two RNs into this story, with one of them being the Charge Nurse. The punishments in that case should be the same as in the stated case. The supervisor does not receive the same punishment as the person who screwed up, PROVIDED that the assignements were made properly. It seems that, given what few facts we have, the assignments were probably correct. The GI bleed patient in question does not appear to be beyond the capabilites or scope of practice of a LPN to handle. Of course, we don't have the facts in this case, so conjecture is going to fill in the gaps.

I have to agree with tweety here. A Med-Surg floor, 1 RN, 1 LPN, 1 CNA with 12 patients just doesn't seem to be that big a deal. I've certainly covered far more patients with the same staffing on Med Surg floors. I'd find that a problem in an ICU, to be certain, but not a Med Surg floor. I find it odd that in "team nursing" they each took x number of patients and provided total care to those patients. That kind of negates the idea of team nursing. In true team nursing they would have worked on all of the patients as a team. I don't think that in a true team nursing environment, this incident would have as great a chance of happening as it did in a total care environment. Regardless, the LPN in question accepted assignment for a certain number patients to provide total patient care to those patients. That makes her responsible for those patients, end of discussion. She was sloppy, she failed to check on the patient for 3-4 hours and the patient died because of her failure to do her job. She is, or was, a licensed nurse and fully responsible for her own duties and deserved to be fired. The RN, who certainly has questionable supervisory skills, got reprimanded probably in her permanent record and perhaps even had the incident report to the BON. She deserved the reprimand she got but does not deserve to get fired over the screw up of another licensed nurse. One could easily put two RNs into this story, with one of them being the Charge Nurse. The punishments in that case should be the same as in the stated case. The supervisor does not receive the same punishment as the person who screwed up, PROVIDED that the assignements were made properly. It seems that, given what few facts we have, the assignments were probably correct. The GI bleed patient in question does not appear to be beyond the capabilites or scope of practice of a LPN to handle. Of course, we don't have the facts in this case, so conjecture is going to fill in the gaps.

Why don't you try this one? Go moonlight at some civilian hospitals. Take some leave if you need to, it will be worth the time. Then you will have first hand experience to compare. The extra bucks won't be bad either. Why plan in a vacuum? Don't take our word for it, go find out for yourself. Just be prepared, that old saying of the "grass being greening on the other side of the fence" is VERY, VERY true. I've worked both, gee that was a rather obvious statement wasn't it, civilian and military environments and I'll take the military hands down.

Why don't you try this one? Go moonlight at some civilian hospitals. Take some leave if you need to, it will be worth the time. Then you will have first hand experience to compare. The extra bucks won't be bad either. Why plan in a vacuum? Don't take our word for it, go find out for yourself. Just be prepared, that old saying of the "grass being greening on the other side of the fence" is VERY, VERY true. I've worked both, gee that was a rather obvious statement wasn't it, civilian and military environments and I'll take the military hands down.

(Vigorous Applause) Hear, Hear!

Stupid 101, 102, 110, 111 are required for upper level management these days.

You've identified the crux of the whole issue. Questionable Conclusions drawn from limited data. Heaven forbid we should draw our conclusions from fully investigated data. Am I to understand that you advocate complete research? What's next, admitting that all Nurses are professionals? Oh no! Don't tell me this could lead to the end of "my nursing degree is better than yours!"? How horrible it would be if we all respected our individual training and talents instead of constantly putting each other down. What a terrible board we would have if RNs didn't put down LPNs, BSNs didn't put down ASNs, MSNs didn't put down BSNs, and PhDs didn't put down MSNs. If we don't spend our time bashing each other, whatever will we do? Where's the fun in that? That's SARCASM for those of you who might have missed it. That would be those of you who simply must put down others to feel better about yourselves. You're just a (insert title here) and therefore less than I because I am a (insert second title here) and hence much better than you. See, I have this article that proves I'm better than you. It was published in a national magazine and therefore must be utterly reliable. No, don't bother to refute it as I don't want to hear it. So leave my glorious presence and go about your miserable existence. Now those of you who are so insecure that you need bash other nurses can cut and paste the above paragraph, insert the appropriate titles and post it. That way we can all save time, the rhetoric will be the word for word the same and we can just skim over the inflammatory posts. Or perhaps, we really could stop bashing ourselves, admit that all nurses are professionals, and begin pulling together as a profession. Nah, that's too radical an idea. Forget I proposed it.

Having retired from the Army in 1996, as a Nurse, I can tell you that you must be prepared for a very different type of nursing. Your scope of practice in the military is much greater than it will be in the civilian world. But the hardest thing I had to adapt to was worrying about a patient's ability to pay their bill. It just flat is NOT a concern in military nursing and you'd be surprized what a burden it becomes when you have to think about it. Having to account for supplies used, having patients not take medications because they couldn't afford to buy them, were all very foreign concepts to me. I still like having these concerns. I much preferred it when I only had to worry about providing the best nursing care I could, without the patient's financial status coming into play. If you like it in the military, why not stay there? Good nurses are needed in the military as well and you'll be getting gobs of great experience.

Eveyone in the healthcare arena has someone supervising them. RNs may be required to supervise LPNs and make sure that they are doing their duties in an appropriate manner but that same RN has someone who is required to supervise them and make sure that they are doing their duties in an appropriate manner. Strange that I don't hear anyone bemoaning that burden on the system and it's increased patient safety risk. RNs and LPNs can both be either competent or incompetent. There is a Charge Nurse somewhere in every facility that is resposible for making sure that ALL nurses perform their duties properly. Frequently these Charge Nurses have a patient load they must carry in addition to their supervisory duties. This tired rhetoric of LPNs being a burden should be dropped. LPNs are Licensed Nurses and when utilized properly can be a great asset to any organization. The same goes for CNA's, who have their own skills and abilities to contribute any organization. I, for one, would hate to work in any organization that didn't use LPNs or CNAs. On the issue of skills and abilities, as Nurses we should be willing and able to perform any duty of any person assigned to unit. No task should be "beneath" us to peform for our patients. It doesn't matter if the task is "skilled" or "un-skilled" if you are available to perform and it falls within your abilities to do so, then you should perform the task. If any Nurse is unwilling to perform a necessary task because it is "beneath" them, they should move onto another career field because they no business in the nursing profession. Nothing irritates me more than the healthcare "professional" who is too good to empty a bed pan or wipe a patient's butt. I'm not saying anyone here said that, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Nurses don't learn technical skills? LPNs aren't doing high levels of assessments? Gee when I went to LPN school we leaned all those "technical" skills only then they were called "essential nursing skills" as were the assessment skills we were trained in. These days, in NC, LPNs still use these essential nursing skills (to include venipuncture, EKG, routine waived lab tests, IVs, patient assessment etc) on a daily basis. In fact RNs do so as well, what with those being essential nursing skills. While it is true that many RN programs are getting away from essential nursing skills and teaching more esoteric stuff such as the "theory of nursing", any program worth attending still teaches the "technical skills"

The ANA is an essentially powerless lobby. Don't waste your time or money on them. Go straight to the source and work through your board of nursing. In North Carolina, as previously stated, it is against the law for anyone to refer to themselves as a nurse unless they are a RN or LPN. It is also a requirement of law for all health care providers to wear name tags with their title. The law states that the patient has the right to know who is working on them and what their qualifications are before they are touched by the health care provider. Violations are punishible by a $250 fine, at least that's what a former CMA got charged for calling herself a Nurse. The law got changed in this state by nurses who were fed up with physicians and their tricks to make us powerless. We elected a board of nursing with teeth, replaced the dinosaurs, and got some reasonable laws enacted. You should do the same, or maybe move to North Carolina. We need more nurses.

I understand your response I really do. You have clearly stated your viewpoint. I disagree and here is why: I have been a Nurse for 22 years. I am every bit as qualified as my female counterparts. I have been on the receiving end of gender discrimination, professionally, for 22 years. I have been denied work opportunities (L&D, post partum, etc...) based SOLEY on my gender. I have patients refuse to allow me to work on the base SOLEY on my gender. I have always been understanding of their concerns and complied when a female nurse was present. When I was the only nurse present, I provided the best nursing care I could provide after explaining the situation to the patient. Perhaps the patient had a religious or cultural aversion to a male working them. Well, let us use your hatred theory. Religious aversions are generally based in hatred of some other religion or group of people or society or culture. Cultural biases are merely group hatreds, usually based in religion. So if a patient refuses to allow a male to work on them for religious or cultural reasons, it is most likely hatred based. The fact that their religion tells them to hate does not make it acceptable. Discrimination is discrimination, pure and simple. Gender or race based discrimination are both legally and morally wrong. The motivation of a patient is IRRELEVANT. If a patient is allowed to choose the gender of the nurse working on them then they are allowed to choose the race of the patient working on, legally and morally. That is why these situations are the same, legally and morally.

As opposed to the white man who just had himself half beaten to death by a group of black men or visa versa? You can example this to death and still not make it right in one case and not the other.

C'Mon now. That is still a prejudice. Just like not liking egg plant (YUCK!) is a prejudice. Prejudice is a learned dislike & concurrent avoidance of things or people. You grew out of it, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a prejudice. Some people just never grow out them and THAT is the crucial difference. If you weren't going to take no for answer answer, what makes you think less enlightened people will? If you don't think you should have been forced into having him work on you, why do you think others should be forced into having people they don't like working on them? Equality is a two edged sword, just because you don't like the way the other edge cuts, doesn't mean it isn't right. Did you know in North Carolina the law states that a nurse is nurse and gender cannot be a factor in hiring or assigning nursing work? The same wording applies to race. The doctor that hired me found that one out the hard way. So legally, the situations are the same. As far as I'm concerned they are morally the same as well.

OK, I understand your feelings, which is why I don't work on patients who want a female unless there are NO females present, this happens from time to time in small facilities. Now if you have those kinds of feelings, and you are soon to be a nurse, then why can't you understand someone else have them about someone else? What about the black patient who has had bad experiences with white people (or visa versa) and doesn't want the other race working on them? Put yourself in their place and suddenly the situation is alot more alike than you originally allowed for, isn't it? See it isn't always hatred that is the cause. Prejudice, maybe, but not hatred. You're not wanting a male to work on you was prejudice, despite any justification you felt at the time. So we're back to my original statement. Because it IS different case by case, if you allow it in one case, you MUST allow it all cases or can't allow it in any cases. The motivation of the patient is irrelevent. It doesn't matter if we are offended by their choices & motivations. Either ALL patients get a choice in who works on them or NONE of them do. So in the end, the situations ARE the same.

OOPS. Sounds like a server issue. I haven't see those replys yet. Sorry

Nope, you did not. You stated what you feel it is rarely based on. I asked you what it IS based on. That is not the same thing at all. Is it based on fear or ignorance? Fear that the male nurse is going to "lose control" and sexually abuse them? Ignorance in the fact that a male nurse is still a nurse? Is it based on gender discomfort? I don't a strange male seeing my female "private area"? Because all of those feelings come into play in the other situation as well. Fear, ignorance, and discomfort (gender or racial) are all precursors to prejudice and hate. Which goes back to making them the same issue.

Then tell me, exatly what IS it based on? Why is it OK for a female patient to refuse the care of an otherwise wholly qualified nurse? Explain this to me in legal sense. Because I truly do not see the difference.

Sorry jnette, but you are dead wrong on that one. A female patient refusing the care of a male nurse (SEXISM) is EXACTLY the same as a white patient refusing the care of black nurse (RACISM). SEXISM = RACISM as DISCRIMINATION = DISCRIMINATION. If you change assignments due to "religious reasons" for female patient refusing the male nurse than you open the door for everyone to refuse to allow anyone to work on the due to "religious reasons". You can't have it both ways, it just doesn't work like that. If one group of patients can refuse to allow any group of care givers to work on them for cultural or religeous reasons then ALL groups have that right regardless of how we feel about it. It is all or nothing, there is no middle road. The equalty under the law we all want demands that kind of hard line. No one group gets to choose while another is not allowed to choose. Cultural and religeous reasons are not valid unless they are valid for all people who claim them, not just those we find socially acceptable. Having said that, what do we do in a situation like that? Beats me. In the USA, patients are no longer patients they are customers or consumers. The customer is always right. Right? In countries where they have socialized medicine it may be different. I'm afraid the answer to this issue is going to be decided in the courts and not this forum. Feelings are too strong across the board and logic does not apply.

OH MY GAWD! What is the world coming to?!? LPN's doing assessments! What's next, IV Medications? How horrible! The next thing you know they might insist that LPNs be considered NURSES instead of glorified aides! IS NOTHING SACRED? California is supposed to be one of the most progressive states in the union, unless you're an LPN. Then it's mideval times! LPNs doing assessments, administering IV meds, have their own ASSIGNED patients, and in general being the nurses they are trained to be, are a fact of life in North Carolina. Seems like California has a looooong way to go. Why is it that expanding the scope of practice of LPNs is seen as a threat to RNs out there? It's been done here over the last 10 years and amazingly, RNs aren't losing their jobs to LPNs. True some RNs are distraugt to see LPNs no longer as sub-servient and lowly they used to be. Even more amazing, the predictions of higher patient mortality and morbidity rates secondary to increased LPN scope of practice has failed to materialize. Go figure. Y'all are barking up the wrong tree if you think an expanded LPN scope of practice is aimed at pushing RNs out of jobs. Get a reality grip. It didn't happen here and it won't happen there. LPNs and RNs are all Nurses in the eyes of administration, a cost to be contained. This outraged attitude is exactly the divide and conquer technique that they have used for years to keep nurses down and those of you complaining about the increased LPN scope of practice are playing right into their hands. Good Job, keep it up. When are nurses going to realize that we need to unify as a group to achieve our goals?