dsczephyr

The short answer is yes. But the following will give an idea of descriptions and qualifications, and you may need to be able to relocate in order to get the kind of position you want: Job title:Forensic Nurse/Physician Assistant Investigator II Job location:Houston, TX 77054 United States Requisition code:14202-P Date posted:08/28/09 Job type:Full-Time Compensation:Based On Education and Experience/Based on 26 Pay Periods Job Classification ________________________________________ Job category: Forensic Nurse Job Description ________________________________________ Job description: The Forensic Nurse/Physician Assistant Investigator II develops organized, concise and accurate death reports in accordance with Texas Code of Criminal Procedure 49.25. Responds to death scenes to document and prepare decedent for transport. Conducts preliminary external physical examinations on deceased individuals either at scenes or upon arrival to Harris County Medical Examiners. Takes charge of the remains at the scene, securing transport to the morgue and receiving the decedent at the morgue. Assists autopsy assistants with recovery of remains at death scenes, including moving, lifting heavy bodies. Collects and preserves physical and biological material at the scene to be used as evidence or for further forensic investigation. Maintains chain of custody of remains and evidence associated with the decedent. Reviews medical records for physician consultation and for organ donation requests. Responds to hospitals to document organ donation requests and evaluate condition of the body as requested by pathologists. Evaluates decedents' eyes for pre-autopsy approval recovery in natural deaths. Conducts medical records searches and case management for pathologists. Assists with performing external examinations under the direct supervision of the Chief Medical Examiner or designee. Assists with the identification of unknown deceased persons. Acts as a liaison between pathologists, investigator division and outside hospitals and physicians. Performs nursing and other duties as assigned by the Senior Forensic Nurse Investigator, Chief Medical Examiner, Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Assistant Deputy Chief Medical Examiner or Chief Investigator. Job Requirements ________________________________________ Education, training, experience: For nurse candidate: A licensed Registered Nurse in Texas or eligible for Texas licensure within 6 months of employment. An ADN from an accredited school of nursing with one year of acute care experience, clinical forensic nursing or death investigation. Certified Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner (either Texas State certification or IAFN certification) is preferred. For physician assistant candidate: A BS and graduate from an accredited physician assistant or surgeon assistant training program is required. One year of post certification clinical experience in emergency/trauma as a Physician Assistant. Previous experience identifying, collecting and documenting evidence in trauma, abuse, or neglect cases is required. Physical requirements: Natural ambulation, because of difficult working conditions (i.e., scenes where dexterity is necessary because of the need to manipulate bodies as a part of the investigation or in loading and unloading remains. Climb stairs, industrial and commercial structures, board ships and to spend whatever time is necessary on one's feet in investigation or recovering of human remains). Also: Job title:SEXUAL ASSAULT NURSE EXAMINER COORD - ER Job location:Lebanon, OH 77777 United States Requisition code: Date posted:09/05/09 Job type:Full-Time Compensation: Job Classification ________________________________________ Job category: SANE Job Description ________________________________________ Job description: The Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner, Program Coordinator is a professional nurse who has the authority and responsibility to oversee the care and services provided to patients of sexual assault. The Coordinator will monitor sexual assault patient care through admission until discharge from the Emergency Department. The Coordinator oversees the Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner participants in the program and monitors SANE performance through peer review and performance improvement. The Coordinator is responsible for taking scheduled call and performing sexual assault examinations equivalent to recertification requirements established by state certifying body. The Coordinator is responsible for the development of on-call scheduling of SANE participants and oversees compliance. The Coordinator provides participant and network associate education. The Coordinator participates in a leadership role in the network, community and state agencies. Responsible for all PI and peer review related to sexual assault. Job Requirements ________________________________________ Education, training, experience: Qualifications EXPERIENCE REQUIRED: Three years Emergency Department or Intensive Care/ Three years as Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner Meets all requirements for Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner position. EXPERIENCE PREFERRED: Charge Nurse LICENSURE/CERTIFICATION: BLS, ACLS, PALS, TNCC, ENPC, CA-CP SANE Day Shift For more info call DFA Recruiters at 866 967-5218. Job Experience: 3 years

"Wow" was my reaction to this one. The ER I work in, and the others I have worked in, people care about their patients. They are also aware that often, the most important thing to a patient, pain management aside, is how long they have to wait. It's about customer satisfaction. I've only been a nurse for six years, and about four of those have been in the ED. I learn something new just about every shift I work. If I don't understand something, I ask - the docs and PAs are always willing to show and expain what I don't know. We have people who "shadow" all the time, and we talk to them about reality vs TV image. We also answer their questions and teach as we are able. Attitude is everything, and the attitude of being willing to do whatever needs doing is important in any area of nursing. That's what "teamwork" is about. I also did an internship/preceptor as a student, as well as hundreds of hours of unpaid clinical time. I remember how it felt to want to be in the role of nurse, but yet be in the role of a "fulltime unpaid assistant." I also felt frustrated because I wanted to know and be on the same level as the nurses. As an ED RN, I still do all those things I did as a "fulltime unpaid assistant," but am now responsible for so much more. As to it being a place for a new grad - that depends on the individual and also the place. I spent time in two other EDs before I found one where I felt "at home." Are we fast? Sure we are. In this day and age, we have to be. But we also learn, all of us, all the time. For this writer - the ED was clearly not the place to be, at least for now. For others, it is the right place to be. As with all posts, readers should be cautious about adopting one person's experiences and making assumptions based on someone else's experiences. The attitude of being willing to do whatever needs doing, not being afraid to ask questions, and never doing something you are unsure about are all key ingredients to being successful in the ED. As for me, I am studying for my CEN (at home on my off time) and am amazed at what all I am learning. And that's after completing my MSN where I did indeed complete hundreds more of unpaid clinical hours. That's simply the way it is.

Just an additional thought; try checking out the CT job fairs. The link is: http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/jobfairs/default.htm. The one in Groton on May 14th at the Groton Inn & Suites has at least one or two representative agencies looking for nurses. Wishing all of you the best. A working nurse.

Try checking out state job opportunities. The link is: http://www.das.state.ct.us/exam/bl_jobs_list.asp?F_Type_List=Jobs Suggestions of where to look would be Dept of Mental Health and Addiction Services (DMHAS), University of CT Health Center, Connecticut Valley Hospital. Many of these are connected with mental health and addiction, or corrections - but it's a place to start. State jobs may have a bit more paperwork to fill out, and clearly there's no guarantee of a job, but many people don't even think about the option to apply for one. Good luck to all. A Working Nurse

Hi Lachrymologist, One other thought comes to mind when I read your post. Once you get your RN, and assuming you are still interested in forensic nursing (SANE and otherwise) and you are doing your interviews at hospitals, find out what they know of forensic nursing and how supportive they would be of you pursuing this field. Regardless of what area you choose, the training will cost money and some hospitals/agencies would be willing to pay for education, testing, and are supportive in general - others are not and would not. If you do SANE training, keep all your original signatures and sign-offs, and who your instructors are. I just passed my Board Certification as a SANE-A and I had to track down my instructors who validated me so they could sign my application to take the exam (which cost more than $200 to take). The certification exam is about as difficult as nursing boards; 4 hrs was allotted for taking it (it took me 3 hrs) and I had 176 questions to answer. Most of them were scenario based and required more than a surface understanding of sexual assault and involved critical thinking. There are other areas of forensic nursing, and it would be helpful to you to be able to relocate to another area of the country, if necessary. The economic situation is also taking its toll on this area of nursing: although I work in an ED where I am a SANE nurse and I do use forensic nursing, I had been hired as a per diem forensic nurse in another hospital. Last week I got a formal lay-off notice, as did the others who were forensic nurses there, due to a fiscal deficit. So, go into this field with eyes wide open, research it all you can, and network as much as you can. Best of luck to you.

You're very welcome! I graduated from Quinnipiac University, the one that just put their program on hold. But I believe Fitchburg State, in a neighboring state, has a good program. The International Association of Forensic Nurses (IAFN) have chapters in various states (though not every state has a chapter). If you go to the IAFN web site, under "Networking" there is a "Chapter" link. Click on that and it will give you a list of the various chapters. Be aware that to be a member of a chapter you must pay the fee to join IAFN, and then you can join the chapter. As to background, there is no rule that you need to be an ED nurse. Some of the forensic nurses I know work in VA hospitals, long-term care, labor and delivery, ICU; they also work in agencies such as Dept of Children and Families, Department of Developmental Disabilities, and in domestic violence centers; they work in psychiatric forensic settings and prisons, and so many other areas. But the ED gives you exposure to many patients with forensic issues, you learn so much in that arena, so I tend to be partial to it myself. But everyone is different and has their own areas of interest. I have listed some of the ones I know to show that forensic nursing is not bounded by ED or SANE, it's much more universal. Hope this has been of some use...best of luck to you.

Hi nursern07 Have you checked out other forensic nursing websites? This forum has a lot of great information, but there are also other websites specific to forensic nursing. There is the International Association of Forensic Nurses at: http://www.forensicnurse.org On that site you will find a list of schools that have certificate and graduate forensic programs (although,Quinnipiac University, still on that list, recently put their program on hold). You can also check out whether or not your state has a local chapter of forensic nurses to join. That way you can also find out what other forensic nurses are doing in your state. There is also American Forensic Nurses website at: http://www.amrn.com/faq.html which also offers forensic nursing education in various areas and is another resource. And also The Forensic Nurse at: http://www.theforensicnurse.com In light of your interests, you may also want to check out the American College of Forensic Examiners International at: http://www.acfei.com There are many others out there. And obviously, this forum contains a lot of good information. On a personal note, I would say this: You don't need a master's degree to be a forensic nurse. Although I have my MSN as a Forensic Nurse Clinical Specialist, and I also have my BS in Criminal Justice - Investigative Services, I read many posts and am on listserves where the forensic nurses simply did a certificate. I work as an ER nurse who uses what I know in that setting (and yes, that includes, but is not limited to, being a SANE), but I do not go to crime scenes or work as a death investigator. BUT - in my MSN program, I did get to do a lot of hours of internship in various settings ranging from law offices to state agencies to medical examiner to riding with police (a total of 600 hours over three clinical semesters). I got to do these because the university had contracts with those agencies. These internships are sometimes more difficult to get with some of the certificate programs out there due to insurance and liability-type stuff. And then there are some certificate programs that have a limited clinical component to them. So it depends on what's important to you. I would suggest taking your time in shopping around to see what forensic program is a best fit for you. And then - yes, you may very well need to relocate to really get the position you want. Some states are astute and understand the need for forensic nurses, other states, not so astute. One more thing: I got into nursing five years ago solely to be a forensic nurse. I have learned that experience really counts in this field; your experience as a nurse, along with your education, is what really gives you your credibility as a forensic nurse. Good luck - and please, share your experiences. I am sure they will be valuable.

Hello wsuchic1, As SirI noted, the main portal for victims of sexual assault who are seeking medical care and evidence collection is the ED. It is the natural and logical place to go if you are an assault victim looking for assistance. I do believe, however, that there are a few free-standing clinics out there specifically for sexual assault victims who don't want to go to an ED. But there are not that many of them and they are typically found in big cities. That said, working as a nurse in an ED does not guarantee that you will see many sexual assault victims. I worked in a community hospital ED for a year and a half before I ever saw my first sexual assault, and I had done SANE training prior to that. There are hospitals that see many and those that see few, depending on factors such as urban or rural location, etc. In ED, we see many of the patients that end up on med-surg units, but on a more urgent basis. You stated you have a degree in Psychology and loved being an advocate. A SANE nurses' role is different than that of an advocate, (the SANE role is strictly objective and biased for justice and the advocate's role is inherently biased for the victim). That said, the advocate is an invaluable member of the Sexual Assault Response Team (SART). You could work as a nurse where you want to work and are comfortable, but be that advocate in a SART when not working as a nurse. It would be tough and dependent on your work schedule, but I did both (in two separate counties) for a time. One thing I don't recommend is going to work in an ED solely because you want to be a SANE nurse. Sexual assault victims are a very minor percentage of the patient population you will see in a typical ED. I hope this has been of some use. dsczephyr MSN - Forensic Nurse Clinical Specialist, SANE

I have been an RN for nearly five years. I've worked nights in the ED for going on three years. I am also scheduled to finish my MSN this May. I make a bit under $30 an hour, straight pay, and frankly have no idea where people get the idea that you start out at this rate. Nurses make decent wages these days in most places, but some of the expectations I read about are unrealistic. Most new RNs start out these days at around the mid-20's, and maybe bit over that depending on where you apply and your educational level (AS or BSN). I also used to work in LTC as an RN and didn't get paid nearly what I do now. Hope this helps.

I've commuted and worked in two teaching hospitals and three community hospitals, including two mentioned by GrumpyRN63, and the third being a different magnet hospital. I currently work one at one of those places (not the magnet hospital) and the experience is a positive one. Each of these places were all different from what I would have expected. Some have been good experiences, others not. For myself, I don't go by reputation because change happens, and reputations often don't keep up with the changes. What I would suggest is waiting until you get here, then ask to shadow at every place you are interested in. If you do, make sure to have a list of qualities that are important to you so you can compare and contrast. Only you can tell if someplace is a good fit for you, or not. Just my two cents. Good luck to you.

Hey KMS4 - you can certainly do a Master's in Forensic Science. But it would be more school on top of doing nursing school. Which, by the way, is inherently stressful. No one in my class enjoyed nursing school, at least, not that I know of. It was something we all just had to get through - and then the boards. You have so many paths you can choose. Do you want to be a cop who does crime scene investigation? I work with an RN in the ED who is a former cop. She uses her knowledge and experience in ways the rest of us can't because we don't have her background. I have a mentor, friend and teacher who retired from the state police - she was promoted to homicide detective after years of doing minor crime stuff. She now teaches forensic photography, forensic nursing at nursing schools, and is working in Bogota, Columbia with their police to establish forensic nursing policies there. Before retiring she taught CSI to state police cadets. Also, I took my SANE course with an RN who is currently a member of a police department. She uses her nursing background for the department. As to the ME's office, that would be pathology. There are schools you can attend to become a pathology assistant. Next semester I get to spend time with the ME's office observing autopsies - and answering all the questions that I am studying pathophysiology and health assessment so hard for now. If you are interested in an MS in Forensic Science, here's a link you can look at: http://www.newhaven.edu/show.asp?durki=432 It will give you an idea of what it is. Anyways, I hope you find what you are looking for. Just a word of advice though: try to keep your perspective on nursing school. It's what you need to focus on right now - just like I have to focus on my own very stressful courses (I plan to reward myself with a day at a spa the day after final exams - and then next semster I get to do the forensic nursing courses - and only forensic nursing courses - that I have spent years working towards). When I applied to the ED, I was asked how long did I think it would take me to become an ER nurse. I replied, "At least a year." The response? That it would take me at least a year to "get used to" being an ER nurse, and another 1-2 years beyond that to get comfortable with the role. I was told to count on three years to really get comfortable in the role. When you finish nursing school and decide in what direction you want to travel, bear it in mind that getting really good at anything - not just nursing - takes time, hard work, and patience. Good luck - Denise

Hi KMS4, I always enjoy SIRI's answers. Always thoughtful, knowledgeable, and thorough. usually I just read, but don't reply. This time I thought I might could add a couple of cents. Four years ago I was exactly where you are now. A nursing student, about to graduate, who wanted to do forensic nursing. I would share with you the following: (1) If you go to the IAFN website and look under jobs, you will see that forensic nursing positions, including death investigation positions, do exist. Not so much in the Northeast, but further out west there are a few positions open for death investigators. (2) As someone who has a BS in Criminal Justice - Investigative Services, along with my RN, I will tell you that there are many I went to school with who want to do crime scene investigation and death investigation. They are not nurses, they are cops and criminal justice students who plan a career in law enforcement. Most do not know what forensic nursing is. Most of the nurses I know who actually go to scenes are also cops. I know of some exceptions to this - nurses who go to scenes. But they had to work very hard to get their positions, and were experienced nurses. I don't say this to discourage you, but rather to paint a realistic picture. (3) I am an ER night shift nurse. I also am a crisis counselor and case manager in a domestic violence shelter. I have degrees in nursing and criminal justice. I am also an MSN student at Quinnipiac University enrolled in the Forensic Clinical Nurse Specialist Program. I am halfway through the program - three years part-time. Let me tell you what I study: Nursing Issues and Trends, Theories, Research, Advanced Pharmacology, and these days I struggle through the Kreb cycle, enzymatic actions, DNA repair, genetics and all that wonderful biology and anatomy and physiology of graduate level Pathophysiology- which all forensic nursing students must take (we are constantly reminded that we must know the difference between the normal and abnormal and how it all begins- our first day was spent studying cell structures and organelles. Remember Biology?). Plus Advanced Health Assessment where we learn to do real pelvic exams (think SANE certification), and we finally get to take something forensic related such as Forensic Photography. We did a photo shoot of a mock up domestic violence scene night before last. My teacher is an RN who just retired as a state trooper. She did crime scene investigation, mostly homicide; She also worked in a nursing home per diem so as to keep up her skills as an RN. (4) What do I do with all this and what do I hope to do? I am working to become SANE certified. I took the six week course this past summer, and am working on the completion of 15 required pelvic exams, meetings with the state attorney, meeting with the security of the college campus near my hospital, and I did the crime lab tour this past week. It takes time to get it all done, and there is a date by which everything has to be done. And that's all before I can sit for the certification exam. Also, in my ED I am working to set up a screening protocol that will become policy for intimate partner violence. I know how to collect evidence, and I am also working on implementing policies in conjunction with the local PD to do so properly. (5) As to pay, I have been involved with IAFN since I was a freshman nursing student. Now at the graduate level, and having been to Capitol Hill and discussed it with legislators, it comes down to economically proving to the state hospital associations and hospitals and clinics themeselves that it is not only feasible - but worth funding. Let me tell you how hard that is: last night I watched the news on TV and watched two of my co-workers testifying at a hearing at the state capitol about how bad the over-crowding is in emergency departments. And how badly the state needs to financially help ease the crunch. I have to convince my managers that it will help ease that crunch to fund a forensic nurse. Understand, I am not telling you all this to discourage you in any way, shape, or form. But I believe in having a realistic understanding of what forensic nursing really is, what it's about, what its limitations are, and what you will need to do to get there. No one should be going into this for the money. Do you need an MSN in forensic nursing? No you don't. Do you need several years of nursing experience under your belt? Absolutely. And get involved with the NE regional chapter of IAFN and network, network, network. I cannot emphasize networking enough. Before you know it, you will have opportunities you wouldn't have even thought about. I reply in this manner because I run into so very many people who have watched TV shows and have this idea that they can just become a nurse and then go into something like death investigation or become a forensic nurse and only do that role. There are very few hospitals who have on staff forensic nurses. Those who do hire nurses with experience and education. There are about 20 forensic nursing students in my photography class. This doesn't include the total number of graduate forensic nursing students - about half are planning on going into death investigation. And most of them are trained, educated, and experienced nurses who want to do something different. I hope this helps to give you (and others) a realistic idea of forensic nursing. It is a fascinating field, one that I continue to pursue. But it does take time and patience. Just keep on plugging away. Get involved with IAFN, and I would encourage getting into the ED. It's a great place to start. Good luck to you. Denise

I can well understand your frustration. It's how I felt the whole time I was in nursing school, which I went into knowing I wanted to be a forensic nurse. Since becoming an RN I have worked with some awesome LPNs. And it is often hard to tell the difference between an LPN and an RN. But differences do exist. One of the major differences is that of assessment. From a scope of practice point of view, an LPN does not perform assessments, an RN does. Assessment is part of what a SANE does, and being an RN is a requirement to be a certified SANE. As far as certification goes, I have the impression that there is a lot of confusion out there. The only one offered at this time by IAFN is the SANE certification. I know there is on-going work to develop certifications in other areas. The American College of Forensic Examiners offers a Forensic Nursing certification which requires the following: "Hold a current, full, and unrestricted license as a registered nurse (RN) in the United States or its territories; Have practiced for a minimum of 5 years as a registered nurse in the United States; Have successfully completed a formal didactic educational program in forensic nursing. This may include a 3-hour undergraduate, graduate, or post-graduate course (or equivalent hour-based education course), including a minimum of 40 contact hours in the core areas of forensic nursing. Core areas to have been covered in this educational program include the history of forensic nursing; the forensic nursing process; violence and victimology; injury identification, interpretation, and documentation; criminalistics and forensic science; and nursing and the law/legal interface; Be an ACFEI member in good standing; Have supervised and documented clinical experience in any area of forensic nursing practice; Validate his or her current forensic nurse competency by providing supporting documentation (a clinical experience validation form) signed by an appropriate clinical authority, such as a forensic mentor, employer, or nursing supervisor; and Provide two professional references." That is a direct quote from their website. What I would suggest to you while waiting to complete your RN: Take some Criminal Justice courses at a local community college. It's where I started. I just finished a BS (after seven years of taking courses part-time) in Criminal Justice with a focus in Investigative Services. Look into volunteering at your local domestic violence and/or sexual assault crisis center. I started a bit over two years ago, now I work one day a week in criminal court as a Family Violence Victim Advocate. I work with State Attorneys, Judges, and within the legal system. Attend all the forensic nursing conferences you are able to attend. I started attending five years ago and this past year had the privilege of being invited to be one of the IAFN International Scientific Assembly's planners. Do you have a state IAFN chapter. Most states have one. If your state has one, get involved. You can, as a student, be a part of things. You just can't vote or hold office. I am a current member of my state chapter's Board of Directors. I attended meetings as a freshman nursing student. In short, there are things you can do. One thing about being a forensic nurse: it is what you make of it. To a certain degree, you have to invent your own opportunities and create your own experiences. I just finished the SANE course. But I have to set up my own appts with the local college's security office, with the detectives who investigate the sex crimes, with the local prosecutor, and I also have to set up my own pelvic exams in order to become a certified SANE. I don't have to go for certification. I have completed the course and that's worth 45 CEUs where I live. But I want to get my certification. I'm sorry this is so long. I hope this helps you to identify some possibilities. Just be patient, and be persistent. Good Luck. dsczephyr

Susan, The nurses who directed you to go to the ER to do forensic nursing are correct in saying that this is the place to go to really get hands on. However, in reading your replies I perceive That you are not quite comfortable in going straight into the ER right out of school. The trauma unit sounds like a great place to get your first year of nursing down and to gain confidence in your assessment skills. I have been a nurse for a bit over two years. I went into nursing school knowing, like you, that I wanted to do forensic nursing. I also understood the value of being patient and learning how to be a nurse before trying to specialize. And so, for the past two years I have worked in med-surg, worked in sub-acute and long-term care (where I learned more about the natural process of dying than I would have anywhere else). On the forensic side of things, I worked part-time as a case manager in a domestic violence shelter and gained a state certification as a domestic violence crisis counselor. I took courses at my local community college in Criminal Justice (CJ) and learned about Rules of Evidence,and Criminal Law,, and Forensic Science. I re-certified as an EMT and gained experience responding to 911s. I also joined my State Chapter of the International Association of Forensic Nurses (IAFN) and became an active member doing whatever needed doing. I am now finally becoming what I have been working towards. I just accepted my first ER position (and I can say that I am finally ready for that experience) and I have also been tentatively accepted into the MSN program at Quinnipiac University in the Clinical Forensic Nurse Specialist track (I still have one more course to go on my BS in Criminal Justice and formal acceptance in contingent on finishing that last course this fall). And I have become involved in the IAFN on an international basis, receiving an invitation to be a part of the planning committee for the Scientific Assembly. I have told you all of this so that you have some ideas on what you can do to realize your dream. There is no right or wrong way to go about becoming a forensic nurse. Just research it out, see what opportunities lie around you, volunteer, and take classes and courses. And read anything and everything on forensic nursing. I would strongly recommend taking a few CJ courses so that you have an understanding of our Criminal Justice system and how it works. Most people don't really understand how it works. Please let us know how it all works out. And the best of luck on your boards! Denise

Hi Melody - I checked with a friend who's on the Board of Directors for IAFN. She believes that the New Jersey chapter might be closest to you. There's none in your immediate area (at the moment) and we think New Jersey might be closer to you than CT. If you could make your way to a NJ chapter meeting, you would probably meet up with others that would take you under their wing. And who knows, you might be one of the ones to get a NYC chapter started once you become a nurse. You're definitely on the right track. Keep in touch, I would be interested to hear how things are going from time to time. It would be great to see you at the Scientific Assembly down in Washington DC if classes and clinicals will allow for it. Good luck - Denise