Msn or mha

klone, MSN, RN · Aug 6, 2014

You definitely need to get an MSN if you want to be a nurse manager.

SummerGarden, BSN, MSN, RN · Aug 7, 2014

You definitely need to get an MSN if you want to be a nurse manager.

Not true!! Many of my Nurse Managers have only BSNs and an MBA. I used to see a lot of Nurse Managers with MSNs, but now not so much. I think it depends on where you live (South, Midwest, East etc.) and the environment (acute care huge hospital setting that is well known around the world vs. small rural hospitals that no one has ever heard of and never will. The former stresses MBAs over MSNs or wants the combo). Good luck! :)

RN34TX · Aug 12, 2014

I will very respectfully disagree. I wanted an MBA and not another nursing degree but that is not where this profession or health organizations are headed.

I too see nurse managers with MBA's and MHA's at my facility but this is fading away and my own facility is starting to require MSN's for these positions.

I was once an LPN working in acute care med/surg but that has all but disappeared from healthcare. Things change.

Large renowned university teaching hospitals are the most likely facilities to already have this in place, not small rural hospitals.

Magnet and other driving forces are pushing this initiative. I'm not saying that I agree with these initiatives because I would much rather have gone the MBA or MHA route, but the fact remains that many if not most major hospitals want nursing leaders to have advanced degrees in nursing.

An MSN prepared manager can go work in a hospital with a group of mixed bag of credentials where managers have different degrees.

The MBA or MHA prepared manager might not be able to attain a nursing leadership position at certain hospitals and this is only going to increase over time.

I've never heard of a facilty that gives preference or requires an MBA or MHA over an MSN but I know plenty of facilities that prefer if not require the MSN for nursing leadership positions.

klone, MSN, RN · Aug 12, 2014

It's a fact that at Magnet facilities, or those trying to obtain Magnet status, an MSN is required in nursing leadership. They do not care about an MHA or MBA.

CraigB-RN, MSN, RN · Aug 14, 2014

Personally (not based on any studies) i think a combined MSN/MHS or MBA is the best shot. Neither degree on it's own has the knowledge level needed. The MSN doesn't give you the basic accounting level knowledge that a nurse manager needs now a days and unless your fortunate enough to work in a place that trains there managers/leaders as they move up the chain, you'll need the knowledge that you'll get from the MBA. The MBA alone won't give you the nursing specific knowledge that would help manage your staff and work environment.

As I go to conferences and check out name tags I see more and more MSN, MBA or MSN, MHA after peoples names.

There is also growing number of programs out there that combine the two. At the risk of rocking the boat, don't discount the DNP as a degree option.

The one thing I wouldn't suggest is get your MSN as a nurse practitioner then take a management job.

RN34TX · Aug 14, 2014

Although I like and agree with your post, keep in mind that nurses with BSN's are doing the job now with no masters period so to say that an MSN or MBA alone aren't sufficient to perform the job is a bit misleading. They learned on the job with no accounting or advanced nursing knowledge.

This is is more about what employers are wanting or demanding. Just like ADN's can do the job just fine but now employers are wanting BSN's for staff positions.

Since I wanted an MBA but my employer and everyone else was saying MSN, a dual degree was originally the answer for me as well.

But I just can't justify the time and cost of 63-72 credits for the MSN/MBA for a nurse manager position vs. 36 credits for the MSN alone.

I might become a director one day at best but not a CNO. Many CEO's, CNO's, and COO's that I've seen have one masters degree and a few have a doctorate so I thought the dual masters degree was expensive and overkill for me personally.

Besides, my thought was instead of a second masters degree I might as well put the time and money into a DNP in nursing leadership/administration.

But everyone has different goals, needs, and aspirations.

But you are right, the MSN/MBA or MSN/MHA provides for the best edge on the competition and most rounded education.

CraigB-RN, MSN, RN · Aug 15, 2014

I was fortunate that I learned budgeting, personal, and management courtesy of Uncle Sam. Still though if it wasn't for my trusty spread sheet I couldn't figure a cost/charge ratio if my life depended on it. I see many new mangers with the MSN as an FNP struggling with those concepts. They are great clinically, but the management part, not so much.

For us its not the letters after our names, but the lack of in house professional development that hurts us. Sites like this can help, but providing people with thoughts, ideas and sometimes facts to make their own decisions on the best way for them to progress.

For awhile there I thought you were going to need a JD to get a CNO position. I agree that the DNP is an option. Most nurses who are going into management don't need a dissertation. But the capstone of a DNP is appropriate. It comes down to your local environment, your personal needs and strengths and the options you have.

jrt4 · Aug 19, 2014

I would disagree with the statement that MSN degree programs do you not give you enough experience in accounting and finance. I received extensive education in this and even had to draw up a mock budget for a project, analyze variance reports, determine correct HPPD needed, direct care vs. indirect care, CPPD... etc... in fact I am more knowledgeable in the subject than many of my manager colleagues who have not pursued a MSN degree and have more experience.

I got my first management position a year and half after finishing school. I am currently a Unit Director at a large academic medical center and I am under 30 years old, So don't be discouraged from applying for a charge nurse or entry level management position with little experience. The number 1 thing we look for in entry level management positions is good judgement. Being an experience bedside nurse does not make you a good manager.

SummerGarden, BSN, MSN, RN · Aug 21, 2014

I am sorry but I am sticking to my guns on this one... It really depends on where you live. Also, nurses with MBAs are not going away (as someone asserted) and in general, nurses are best served to get a Master's degree. With that said, I did not mean to imply that MSNs are not good degrees to have for nurse leaders. In fact, it is a great degree to have.... I was just pointing out that where I live (again, it really depends where you live) nurses with MBAs are preferred for senior level management. Therefore, I see many of the junior level nurse managers and entry level nurse managers with MBAs and not MSNs.

The reason being, nurses where I live can be Executives (CEOs, VPs, CFOs, COOs) and do attain that level of achievement in the hospital setting. It is not a pipe dream here. Where I used to live (the South and in rural areas) the highest most nurses could hope to achieve was director of a unit or a SNF because next to no one ever achieved CNO. Of course, there is nothing wrong with those levels of achievement, it is just that some nurses want to move up the hospital food chain and some of us (me) like seeing nurses in high level hospital positions as oppose to people who have no clinical bedside background.

Thus OP, look at your area and the management team in your area. What degree or degrees do those nurses hold? That may be a good indicator as to a preference (written or not). Keep in mind, ultimately the fact still remains that when attempting to break into management your degree may allow you an interview, but who you know will get you the job! :) Good luck. :)

klone, MSN, RN · Aug 22, 2014

Yes, where I live, I see lots of nurses in high level executive positions. It's nice to be in a large area where there are so many hospitals and facilities and organizations where nurses can thrive. I think that for most of the senior executive positions, these nurses generally have a combination MSN/MBA or they have a doctorate (either PhD or DNP, generally).

RN34TX · Aug 23, 2014

I am sorry but I am sticking to my guns on this one... It really depends on where you live. Also, nurses with MBAs are not going away (as someone asserted) and in general, nurses are best served to get a Master's degree. With that said, I did not mean to imply that MSNs are not good degrees to have for nurse leaders. In fact, it is a great degree to have.... I was just pointing out that where I live (again, it really depends where you live) nurses with MBAs are preferred for senior level management. Therefore, I see many of the junior level nurse managers and entry level nurse managers with MBAs and not MSNs.
The reason being, nurses where I live can be Executives (CEOs, VPs, CFOs, COOs) and do attain that level of achievement in the hospital setting. It is not a pipe dream here. Where I used to live (the South and in rural areas) the highest most nurses could hope to achieve was director of a unit or a SNF because next to no one ever achieved CNO. Of course, there is nothing wrong with those levels of achievement, it is just that some nurses want to move up the hospital food chain and some of us (me) like seeing nurses in high level hospital positions as oppose to people who have no clinical bedside background.
Thus OP, look at your area and the management team in your area. What degree or degrees do those nurses hold? That may be a good indicator as to a preference (written or not). Keep in mind, ultimately the fact still remains that when attempting to break into management your degree may allow you an interview, but who you know will get you the job! :) Good luck. :)

OK I think I get where we agree and differ. I think we have two separate situations here. Allow me to me clarify.

Yes, CEO and COO positions can be held by someone who happens to be a nurse but it's not generally a requirement so often it's business people with MBA's and MHA's hold these positions. So a nurse with a BSN and either MBA or MHA can and do hold these positions. Agreed.

I did not mean to say that nurses with MBA's are going away. That's not what I believe at all.

However, for people who are up and coming and wanting to enter into nursing management and nursing administration and move up the nursing chain, yes, positions for nurse managers and nursing directors who do not have an advanced degree in nursing are starting to fade away.

My own facility today has nurse managers with only BSN's and no graduate degree and some have MBA's, MHA's, MSN's, or DNP's. I even know one director who only has a BSN. But she has had that job for a long time. No one at my facility is getting a director position these days without an advanced degree and soon this advanced degree will need to be in nursing. Same thing is coming for nurse managers.

These degrees might be fine for today but people who are looking at breaking into nursing management and nursing administration (not hospital overall operations and administration) need to look to the future and not just what's going on today because many of these people with other degrees have held these positions for a while. You need to find out what it takes to get a position today and what is trending at other hospitals in the future, not just look at what degrees are currently held by people

in their current positions.

I lived through LPN's being pushed out of acute care and now the push for more BSN's at the bedside. I can see the writing on the wall and if someone is looking at breaking into nursing management as a new person with no management experience, I urge people to look at the current professional literature out there and where things are heading in the future, not just where things are today at your hospital in your local area because things change and your local area might be behind the times, not ahead.