olddragger

When you say the flu sweep through your unit--was it confirmed to be influenza or was it flu like symptoms? Sorry I dont mean to be a pain--but since this is a vaccination thread I though it would be important to compare apples to apples. I too, are seeing many employees off with flu like illnesses and some with confirmed influenza ( per quick test) and all have had the vaccination. Guess what--the hospital still wanted them to work--even though they had been afebrile for only1 day. Most were out for 2 days only. Came to work still feeling bad and most with a cough. Go figure....

Circumcision itself is a surgical procedure. Post procedural care of the procedure is where Nursing enters. Perhaps a paper looking at some cultures aversion to circumcision compared to those that accept circumcision and the health problems associated with the difference?

Thank you MarieBailey, a pick me up is well received. I am so glad to read that report. It was a an eye opener for me also--so to speak. I believe we think somewhat alike in that I have never thought that the this vaccination didnt have a place in health care, but I am convinced that it does not need to be mandated. Its all about risk versus benefit and to me this vaccine has has limited benefit. But, it does have some. Truth proponent? I like that! So am I. I try to stay as objective as I can, because I fully realize that I certainly do not know everything. I try to let the evidence speak for itself. Therefore, I too enjoy a good debate:) I respect your opinion and it is logical. Guess what...I agree that getting the flu shot would be a good thing for most people! But not so much that a Nurses job should be placed in jeprody. In my own twisted way of thinking --if the flu shot is mandated for your job, then if you report to work sick ( low grade fever/cough/congestion/sore throat etc) then shouldnt that also be grounds for dismissal? Try to get hospitals to do that! I think that one of the main things about this flu shot situation that gets to me is hospitals are making their hcw ( Nurses) look bad. By publicly making this mandate and saying that previous attempts didnt work gives the general public the impression that Nurses are willing to expose their patients to infection without any regard. We all know that is not true. If fact it is the other way around. Hospitals dont provide enough to combat nosocomical infections! I do hope the new influenza vaccination works out.

I give up. Just--- everyone go take the flu shot. What do we nurses know anyway.

Wow. Just because I am not in favor of a mandated flu vaccination means I am willing to risk infecting a patient? per your post--" it is surprising that those so willing to sacrifice patient safety to make a questionable supported point about personal autonomy managed to graduate from Nursing School". So are you saying that if a nurse doesnt receive the flu vaccination then they shouldnt have graduated from Nursing School? Do you think that the flu vaccination protects you from getting the flu? Do you think that nurses that come to work with congestion, maybe a slight cough--or just not feeling good are willing to risk infecting their patients? Or what about those Nurses that do not care for patients, but work in other areas of the hospital--like in medical records, research, or telephonic nursing? Do they need the flu shot mandated also? If you really look this at issue you will discover mandated flu vaccinations for EVERYONE IN THE HOSPITAL has at best a limited benefit. Do you threaten nurses job/profession for something that has only a limited benefit? OSHA doesn't think so, CMS doesn't think so, and many other well respected organizations dont. Now lets look at handwashing --since you have focused on that comparison. Now granted, I do not know what the handwashing policies are at the facility you work in, but at our facility our policies mimics CDC's recommendations. Those being: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr5116.pdf skip down to page 32 if you dont want to read the entire thing--its long. Now once you have read this if you can say that your facility mandates handwashing and monitors such consistently -then all I can say is your facility is the first one I have heard of that does that. I mean--do they have someone watching people all the time? Because that is what it would take. Now short version of the cdc recommendations--means that the length of time for proper handwashing is 40 secs to 1 minute--each and every time. Before patient contact ( even taking a blood pressure for example), after patient contact, after touching your face/hair, after touching any inanimate object, after eating, going to the bathroom etc etc. Now IF I remember correctly a study was done on a typical floor nurse handwashing requirements following these strict guildlines and it was not workable. A floor nurse that had 5 patients to care for would need to wash their hands an estimated 100-200 times a day. Thats approx 1.5-3 hrs a day of handwashing. I quote: 9/17) An update from GE’s Scott Gallagher: “Our research has shown that nurses may have as many as 200 opportunities for hand washing per shift. A more typical range is 100-120, and most use an alcohol-based gel that quickly sanitizes and dries while moving on to the next task. Even so, it’s not difficult to understand the challenge of washing so often every day. Our work has focused on not just changing behavior to improve compliance, but to understand what changes in workflow & processes can help reduce that number.” Effectivness? How about this: per cdc [h=3]What kills influenza viruses?[/h]Influenza viruses can be destroyed by heat (167-212°F [75-100°C]). In addition, several chemical germicides, including chlorine, hydrogen peroxide, detergents (soap), iodophors (iodine-based antiseptics) and alcohols are effective against influenza viruses if used in proper concentrations for a sufficient length of time. For example, alcohol-based hand rubs can be used in the absence of soap and water for hand washing. I agree with the poster that said that this debate can go on forever. However, I do hope that the learning part of this debate can be of some help to others. Whether each one of us is OK with a mandated flu shot or not, is not as important to me as learning the truth behind why all of a sudden it is mandated, it's true effectiveness , and all the other precautions that also should be in place. We as Nurse have a responsibility to promote health and to be the patients advocate. How can we do that when we are not aware of the facts behind the curtain?

not applicable--you would have never graduated from any Nursing school with those beliefs. But get real--what hospital really enforces proper hand washing!! They should, and at times they make a few minor efforts to do so--but they only advise that you should. Policies are written about it. But no one tracks you or constantly observes that staff wash their hands as they should. Matter of fact a nurse that has multiple patients --in reality--cannot wash their hands as theory dictate they should. Doctors, x ray techs, Physical therapists etc definitely do not. But I guess my main point with this comparison would be that washing your hands has been proven to work 100% of the time. The flu vaccine best percentage of effectiveness that I am aware off--please correct me if I am wrong---is only 62% agaisnt the 3 virus's it is designed to work agaisnt. That is like only washing one hand. If the flu vaccination was 100% effective then a mandate would make a lot more sense to me.

Thank you Mariebailey--apology accepted. Well, according to cdc's report the number of flu cases are greatly diminished. Thats a good thing.

mariebailey --with all due respect, that comment was not called for. I think the people posting/reading this thread are NOT psychotic, paranoid or members of a radical group. I dont think anyone is wearing a tin foil hat. By the way-- I think you mean aluminum foil hat? They don't make "tin foil" anymore........ I think people posting here have concerns and are voicing those over a free internet forum consisting of fellow professionals. Yes--we do get off topic sometimes--its an internet forum----! yes--some of us to feel like we have no say so in some of the decisions that others make that heavily influence our lives. Decisions that don't make any sense to us. The focus here is the mandatory flu vaccination. If you have been following developments concerning this mandate I think you will begin to see that the hospitals that have acted interdependently in making this mandate, are beginning to see that perhaps that wasn't the best thing to do. Just because others don't agree with your pro flu vaccination beliefs doesnt mean you have to become disrespectful.

Nursing by profession is at times too complacent. Why do ya'll think that occurs? What single patient focused standard has Nursing on a national level said they will not do? I am not speaking about the general statements--we will not do anything not ethical etc. What specific thing has Nursing on a national level taken a stand on? Nurse to patient ratios--no? Proper infection control techniques enforced--no. Working mandatory overtime--no. Working too long of a shift ( 16 hrs+) --no. Professional autonomy --no ( I know of nursing departments being managed by non nurses, nursing policies developed without nursing input--etc). Unfortunately Unions are the only thing that can bring a single voice to others that I am aware of. Now I am not pro union, but if it gets down to them versus us--unions may become more prevalent. Conspiracy theory? I think maybe there is a misunderstanding in that regard. I perceive " they" as being those that are mandating this vaccination. "They" do control a lot now a days. Monitoring every keystroke, monitoring your position while at work, video cameras in halls. elevators and outside the facility. "They" are also monitoring your activity while away from work--speaking about something "they" dont like on facebook can get you fired for example. I don't think its a conspiracy ( agaisnt what?) but the fact remains we have lost a LOT of privacy. We have lost a lot of privacy in our lives and now others are telling us we must receive this so called vaccine or lose your job. I think we are getting mad. That could be a good thing.

a tool in a mans hand is good therapy:)

The ability to stand up for ourselves and to have a strong national voice.

take martial arts.

anytime there is an avoidable change in condition of your employment and the end result for example is that a person with a higher salary ( been there longer) is replaced by a lower salaried person ( new hire) then yes that is illegal. The trick question in this case "is this avoidable". The answer is yes--it is. Hospitals are acting independently on this mandated flu vaccination. There is no national standard, there is no national mandate. This is singularly motivated by CMS's misguided quality requirements that began in 2013. Look it up. CMS states that acute care facilities etc need to have 90% of their staff vaccinated by the year 2015 or face possible penalties. Mandating it is the cheapest and easiest way out. To hell with what others think about that! Administration forgets that they are suppose to work FOR us--we dont work for THEM. We work for the facility and our patients. In time this is going to backfire on a lot of management types---but until then look at the damage it will cause. Damage not in just loosing Nurses and having reduced staffing, but more so, the damage in the relationship between the staff and management, you know motivation, trust, fairness those type of things. It helps to change the " OK we are all in this together and lets be a team"---to" it's every person for themselves" --Thats kinda extreme--but I hope that illustrates my point? Even OSHA does not recommend that this vaccination be mandatory. But the question about legality--I dont think in a court of law that it will past muster. I wonder if it is mandated for CDC employees? lol.

MeggieA--I dont know if I know you? Great minds think alike? lol:) I live in Ga. I am glad you see the points I was trying to make in my post. If Nursing is to be accepted by other "professions" as a true profession ( sadly many times it is not) we need to practice critical thinking and question the things that are occurring around us. This mandated flu vaccination is one. Could you imagine what would happen if no nurse in the united states would accept a mandated flu vaccination? I do wish we had a stronger national voice.

Thats fair and appreciated. You are certainly doing the correct thing in educating yourself. As ludicrous as its sounds an employer cannot just fire an employee because of obesity, even if it is interfering with job performance. Read the Disabilities act. Employers have a responsibly to try and comply with an employees disabilities and obesity that developed after the employee was hired could fall under that umbrella. The flu shot has a use--it just--- should not be mandatory. I agree that it is a stretch to compare it with the other stuff mentioned but once a precedence is set crazy things happen. Five years ago I would have never though my hospital would mandate that I receive a shot that may or may not work agaisnt 3 virus's out of hundreds that may cause the flu. And I have to do this every year. Crazy. Since this is coming from CMS, politicians will have to become involved. So contact yalls senators and representatives.

If I may----FluMist has the potential theoretically cause influenza--although it should be a rare thing. The inactivated virus's within the im version cannot cause the strands of viral infection it contains. However serum sickness can mimic the "flu" clinically in many ways, with even elevated temperatures, muscle aches, sore throat etc. Perhaps that is what many are actually experiencing?

So its wrong to question? It's wrong to insist on evidence proven research? IMHO nursing/employee compliance is what a lot of people and facilities count on to do whatever they want. If you truly want to be a patient advacant ( yes people receiving the flu shots are patients!) then know all you can concerning whatever you are about to do to them. The flu shot has a place, but the hype around it is very misleading. "Lets just comply"???????? GRPMAN---it's one thing concerning new hires--its a totally different matter concerning people that have been employed by the facility for years. For example--would it be ok to fire a nurse for gaining "too much weight", or now having to take antidepressants (for a variety of reasons). Would it be ok to fire someone if they were in a car wreck and lost the sight of one eye? No--I dont think it would --would it? So it's ok to fire someone that doesnt want to take an ineffective vaccination?

i am sorry for your situation Jenni--but I want to give you kudos for your stand and your actions. THIS WILL BE AN INTERESTING CASE!! I retired instead of continuing--so I really cant do what you have done, but I agree hospitals are standing on shaky legal ground. The hospital I retired from has started to even cancel surgeries on the Dr's ( independent contractors) that have not had the flu shot! Dr's are starting to get angry. Perhaps that will be the catalyst that is needed for logical minds to prevail. Please keep us informed of your situation and I will be willing to sign a petition etc if needed? Anything I can do to help.

Many posters have said that as nurses we are bound by professional responsibility to take this vaccine in order to protect our patients. OK then. How do you know that you are protected once you receive the vaccination? I am sure most realize that it is not highly effective. I believe the best percentage is around 62% effective? So if 100 Nurses receive the vaccination then on average 38 of them will not develop any immunity that would prevent them from being a carrier. So how do you know which ones will be Ok and which ones will not? To mandate a vaccination in which there may not be any benefit for the person ( or others around them) is just wrong. Personally I feel that all hcws should be wearing masks while at work and be bound by professional responsibility to maintain the proper infection control protocols---but wait--can we do that?? Lol--heck no? Why? Because CMS has not required the hospitals too and it would cost hospitals a lot of money to implement this correctly. If you want to truly protect your patients from influenza--then do so. To begin with lobby your hospital to develop better handwashing, cough, sneeze containment, restricting visitors, Dr participation, adequate staffing, and proper patient placement. Advise them that it is not acceptable for one nurse to be caring for 3 patients with contagious illnesses and 2 patients that have compromised immune systems --at the same time! It seems to me that this infleunza vaccination has become a miracle worker--lol This world sure is crazy and people sure are funny.

I wish it was that simple elkpark. Your reasoning may be acceptable for new hires,but what about those that have been at a facility for many years? For these nurses it is not that simple. It is also questionably illegal for an employee to make a condition change at work that results in higher paid employees leaving and then replace them with lower paid workers. It is questionably illegal for any employee that mandates their employees to take a vaccination that is ineffective. It is questionably illegal for employees to make their workers wear an embarrassing surgical mask in a punitive fashion. This was a very bad move that hospitals have taken and I think they at some point they will realize this.

wow. Thanks for sharing that.

how do you know?

I agree that it would be difficult to change peoples behavior, however I believe that it should not be forgotten or placed on the shelf as "it's no use in trying" type thing. Just like children people have to be taught over and over and over. And like children some will never discipline themselves enough to do it. But some will. I also agree that the shot should be considered but NOT mandated! One problem I think that really exits with the influenza vaccination is people ( not hcws-at least some of them--lol) think they are protected from being infected from the influenza virus's and then do not place the proper importance on infection control techniques. I truly believe that most people do not understand the influenza vaccination, thinking it is like the other "vaccinations" that provides significant immunity in a high percentage of reciprecants. It is a complex problem. Importunity it has turned into something that people have unnecessarily lost their jobs over.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2012-2013/images/image011.gif Maybe the worst is over?

statistics can be made to be very misleading. CDC uses that to its own advantage also. Ask yourself this--how logical is the influenza vaccination in regard to preventing influenza? Please think in terms for EVERYONE. I accept that the influenza vaccination has a use in select groups, but for everyone I digress. My thoughts on this is that it will have very little overall affect. The Influenza virus mutates and there are many many different types. A vaccination that can possibly help protect agaisnt only 3 of the hundreds ( this depends on the individuals own immune systems response to the vaccination too!) imho could possibly help speed the mutation of those 3 into something not seen before? Just like the overuse of antibiotics causes new strains of bugs that are more difficult to treat ? I seriously think that influenza can be better controlled by more attention to infection control tech--staying at home ( for a week! not one or 2 days), stigent washing of hands, stop touching your face, cough, sneezing control, dont shake hands, good diet, fresh air, exercise, maybe even a multiple vitamin and conservative use of a netii pot, than depending on a vaccination. For example do some reading on what caused TB to become a much rarer infection in the modern world.