TicAL

I think most people who work in the field of medicine (MDs and nurses alike) know that this is completely false. NP students have no responsibility and are there to learn. In that sense they are similar to medical students except for the fact that the NP students have had less educational training. Residents are expected to work (see patients, write orders, write notes, admit/discharge patients, etc). This is why they are paid. Yes a student can write notes, but none of it actually counts for billing or legal purposes.A resident is there to learn, but they have their own licence (MD or DO) and are therefore able to practice medicine. A student is there solely to learn; if an NP student is writing orders and functioning independently they are practicing nursing without a licence and would be subject to severe penalties (and putting patients in danger).

If they're going to pay an NP the same as an MD it makes no sense to hire an NP. No one is going to argue the fact that an MD goes through more training, why hire someone with less training and pay them the same when you can have the maximally trained professional for the same price? I thought the whole selling point of using an NP was that they wouldn't cost as much yet be able to provide adequate care. If it's costing the system the same amount of money to employ an NP as it does an MD that tosses that whole argument out.

To all of the NPs that state that no mid-level thinks they are equivalent to a doctor, read some of nomads posts on here. It's attitudes like his that makes physicians a little nuts and wanting to fight the NP movement. Since you decided to take the time to try to state your equivalency to an MD, I'll go ahead and refute it. BSN: Fine, MDs need a BS degree as well. The only issue is that MDs need to perform exceptionally well in their undergraduate studies to move on to the next step in their training, whereas passing grades are sufficient for advanced nursing studies. ICU: Not academic. Learning to nurse, not learning medicine. CRNA/FNP: It took you 5 total years for this? There's no way it would take that long, unless you were going part time...which is what I suspect. The combined education if you went full time would be close to 3 years, nice try at inflating though I suspect a medical student would complete these studies in a year and a half based on vigor of their studies. DNP: 3 years? Really? Again, this must be part time. Full time it would be two years (maximum, probably closer to 1.5 years). Most of these credits are fluff credits (practice management, ethics, etc) so most of this doesn't really make you a better practitioner anyways. Here's Columbia's curriculum so you can't say that I'm making that up: http://sklad.cumc.columbia.edu/nursing/programs/dnp.php So correcting for your inflation, you truly have 5 post-undergraduate years of training, some of which is not at all related to actually treating patients. I'm sorry, but that does not earn the right for being equivalent. Look, I understand you've spent a lot of time in the system and I'm not trying to put you down. Everybody has a different role and different skills they can bring to the table, but trying to claim that your work is equivalent to the sacrifice made by those in medicine is extremely insulting to those who have gone through it themselves.

I don't understand what's offensive about "MDs are paid for their expertise and skill that they have acquired over many years of academic and practical training." There's nothing in there to be offended by. MDs go through vigorous training and many years of sacrifice to get their rewards. I understand NPs go through schooling as well, but it just doesn't compare to the complexity and difficulty of attaining an MD. You can argue back and forth with me about this, but the curricula, years of practical experience, and high educational standards for entrance to be an MD, can't be denied. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be an NP/CRNA. But if you want to start having the exact same compensation/respect/autonomy as an MD, then maybe that's the route to go. I don't understand what's so controversial about that.

Most NPs state that they are not the same as MDs, one is practicing nursing while the other is practicing medicine. MDs are paid for their expertise and skill that they have acquired over many years of academic and practical training.

I have to say that I have seen the flip side of this as well. Some experienced nurses will absolutely abuse new docs and treat them with a complete lack of respect. Speaking to a new doc with a demeaning voice and making demands is belittling to their training and often times sets up an antagonistic relationship which makes the work environment difficult. It all ends up being about ego. "Who is this kid that just got here that is writing my orders?"

I don't think anyone is threatened, but you have to understand that there are some very intelligent people out there who work very hard to earn the title Doctor and they see this new wave of people with doctorates that put in less than a quarter of the work and time to try to earn the same title. The idea you are trying to insinuate with an NP hiring an MD to work for them is that the NP is now somehow superior, despite the situation being the exact opposite in 99% of the cases. The passive-aggressive, catty tone of your posts here doesn't help your cause. No one has a problem with an NP until she tries to pass herself off as something she isn't (the same way nurses get angered when MAs pass themselves off as nurses).Anyways I hope the op gets answers to the question she asked before you hijacked this thread with the whole "doctor" agenda you're pushing

I know you're trying to make a point by using the word doctor in place of NP, but it makes the post confusing and difficult to follow. If this is confusing on a board full of NPs, just imagine how confusing the doctor title for NPs will be for the public. I know you'll respond with "I'm not misrepresenting myself I do have a doctorate! (*cough* in nursing *cough*), but I'm sure the sentiment isn't lost. Anyways carry on, didn't mean to hijack

What you guys are describing is a medical school curriculum, if that's what you're looking for then wouldn't going that route be better? My impression of the DNP is that aside from the rhetoric about "clinical focus", it's really a program that's focused on producing clinical leaders who have some knowledge of bedside management.

Unless you are referring to unofficial teaching (the same way that RNs can show residents how to put in IVs, etc), NPs can't teach the residents (for legal and other reasons). Not even attendings from other specialties are allowed to oversee residents (unless the resident is rotating through their service). From what I've seen, the midlevels function similarly to 1st and 2nd year residents by taking care of floor work, writing orders, answering pages, etc.

I know you're looking for support, but I have to say that this disturbs me a little bit. I would consider a penicillin rash "harm", these rashes can be very resilient and may ever require a patient to take a short course of steroids (which comes with it's own set of complications) to help overcome. I honestly don't mean to be blunt, but this type of thing should be easily avoidable in a clinic environment.

Slippery slope here, some DNPs would be referred to as "1 year online degree" if they introduced themselves via level of education

That article just has a list of what a practitioner should be capable of doing, it doesn't even mention how the practitioners are trained to achieve that competency.

I don't think we're really saying the same thing. Just a few posts ago you seemed to get really offended when someone mentioned that NPs should partake in more non-online education and post graduate training. If the scope of practice and level of independence are to increase, so does the practitioner's duty to educate themselves to best treat the patient. btw, why is it all of a sudden about competing with physicians? The job is to take care of patients, not to feed your ego. Sorry but the entitled attitude annoys me

Forget the turf wars, the last thing that I would want is someone who isn't adequately trained to try and take care of me or my family for the sake of "competing with the physicians". The only way to truly start comparing an NPs ability to a physician is for the NP to receive more education and training...I don't know why you see that as "holding the NPs back"?