Sekar

Watch out! We have facts posted here! This is intolerable. Who allowed the facts to be posted? Where is the hype? Where is the fear? Where is the propaganda? :chuckle There are the facts folks, read them and be at ease. Your overtime pay is safe.

Test Post, I seem to be having trouble and I want to see if this gets through OK.

All fecal matter aside, research the issues that are important to you. All of the issues, not just nursing. See which candidate or party best meets your stance on the issues. That should be the candidate you vote for in the upcoming election. You probably won't find anyone who meets all of your needs, so you'll have to settle for the one who comes the closest. I could use this time to plug for my candidate, but I won't do that. I just urge you to do the research and vote according to your best judgement, don't let your precious vote go to waste. So many have fought, bled, & died to give that right to vote. Please use it.

Jaaaman, you are wasting your time. You are attempting to clear things up by posting the facts. But, you are quoting facts and the last thing the liberals on this board are interested in is facts. They dress up propaganda, half-truths, and fear as facts and tout that mess around to try and get their candidate elected. Go read the "Nurses for Bush" threads and you'll see what I'm talking about. Emotions ran rampant and the facts posted by the conservatives were generally ignored or worse, turned into personal attacks that were touted as "facts" by the liberals. Sadly the bulk of our profession appears to be made up of liberals, at least from what I see on this board. That being the case, it's no wonder we never seem to get ahead as a profession. Oh well. Wear your flak vest and Kevlar helmet, you're going to need it to protect you from the incoming liberal fire you're going to receive. I'd loan you mine, but I need them.

When I was in the first Gulf War we provided medical care not only to the wounded Americans & Allies, we also provided to the wounded enemy, and the civilians who were wounded by the war (yes, sadly it happens) and those who were brutalized by their own people. That is standard practice for military field medical facilities, and still in practice today. In fact we saw far more of that last catagory than other catagory of patients while we were there. We cared for their wounds, delivered their babies, and fed them our rations so that they would have something to eat. These people weren't brutalized by us "evil Americans" but by the Iraqi government. What I saw dealt out by Iraqis to Iraqis was horrible beyond all the war inflicted wounds I treated. How can a government treat its own people like that? How can anyone question removing a demon like Saddam Hussein from power? Now it's not a government but the "insurgents" (translated terrorists) who are doing it their own people. I don't think we need God's forgiveness, they do. I think history is going to judge us somewhat differently than some here do, but then I've seen alot of it with my own eyes, not filtered & distorted through the liberal media. Put the blame where it is due, on the terrorists and religeous fanatics who feel it their right to wantonly murder & terrorize their own people, and not on us. Our soldiers are the best in the world and they are doing a very difficult job in nearly impossible conditions. They will get the job done if given the support they need, both from our government and our people.

I have to agree with tweety here. A Med-Surg floor, 1 RN, 1 LPN, 1 CNA with 12 patients just doesn't seem to be that big a deal. I've certainly covered far more patients with the same staffing on Med Surg floors. I'd find that a problem in an ICU, to be certain, but not a Med Surg floor. I find it odd that in "team nursing" they each took x number of patients and provided total care to those patients. That kind of negates the idea of team nursing. In true team nursing they would have worked on all of the patients as a team. I don't think that in a true team nursing environment, this incident would have as great a chance of happening as it did in a total care environment. Regardless, the LPN in question accepted assignment for a certain number patients to provide total patient care to those patients. That makes her responsible for those patients, end of discussion. She was sloppy, she failed to check on the patient for 3-4 hours and the patient died because of her failure to do her job. She is, or was, a licensed nurse and fully responsible for her own duties and deserved to be fired. The RN, who certainly has questionable supervisory skills, got reprimanded probably in her permanent record and perhaps even had the incident report to the BON. She deserved the reprimand she got but does not deserve to get fired over the screw up of another licensed nurse. One could easily put two RNs into this story, with one of them being the Charge Nurse. The punishments in that case should be the same as in the stated case. The supervisor does not receive the same punishment as the person who screwed up, PROVIDED that the assignements were made properly. It seems that, given what few facts we have, the assignments were probably correct. The GI bleed patient in question does not appear to be beyond the capabilites or scope of practice of a LPN to handle. Of course, we don't have the facts in this case, so conjecture is going to fill in the gaps.

I have to agree with tweety here. A Med-Surg floor, 1 RN, 1 LPN, 1 CNA with 12 patients just doesn't seem to be that big a deal. I've certainly covered far more patients with the same staffing on Med Surg floors. I'd find that a problem in an ICU, to be certain, but not a Med Surg floor. I find it odd that in "team nursing" they each took x number of patients and provided total care to those patients. That kind of negates the idea of team nursing. In true team nursing they would have worked on all of the patients as a team. I don't think that in a true team nursing environment, this incident would have as great a chance of happening as it did in a total care environment. Regardless, the LPN in question accepted assignment for a certain number patients to provide total patient care to those patients. That makes her responsible for those patients, end of discussion. She was sloppy, she failed to check on the patient for 3-4 hours and the patient died because of her failure to do her job. She is, or was, a licensed nurse and fully responsible for her own duties and deserved to be fired. The RN, who certainly has questionable supervisory skills, got reprimanded probably in her permanent record and perhaps even had the incident report to the BON. She deserved the reprimand she got but does not deserve to get fired over the screw up of another licensed nurse. One could easily put two RNs into this story, with one of them being the Charge Nurse. The punishments in that case should be the same as in the stated case. The supervisor does not receive the same punishment as the person who screwed up, PROVIDED that the assignements were made properly. It seems that, given what few facts we have, the assignments were probably correct. The GI bleed patient in question does not appear to be beyond the capabilites or scope of practice of a LPN to handle. Of course, we don't have the facts in this case, so conjecture is going to fill in the gaps.

Why don't you try this one? Go moonlight at some civilian hospitals. Take some leave if you need to, it will be worth the time. Then you will have first hand experience to compare. The extra bucks won't be bad either. Why plan in a vacuum? Don't take our word for it, go find out for yourself. Just be prepared, that old saying of the "grass being greening on the other side of the fence" is VERY, VERY true. I've worked both, gee that was a rather obvious statement wasn't it, civilian and military environments and I'll take the military hands down.

Why don't you try this one? Go moonlight at some civilian hospitals. Take some leave if you need to, it will be worth the time. Then you will have first hand experience to compare. The extra bucks won't be bad either. Why plan in a vacuum? Don't take our word for it, go find out for yourself. Just be prepared, that old saying of the "grass being greening on the other side of the fence" is VERY, VERY true. I've worked both, gee that was a rather obvious statement wasn't it, civilian and military environments and I'll take the military hands down.

(Vigorous Applause) Hear, Hear!

Stupid 101, 102, 110, 111 are required for upper level management these days.

You've identified the crux of the whole issue. Questionable Conclusions drawn from limited data. Heaven forbid we should draw our conclusions from fully investigated data. Am I to understand that you advocate complete research? What's next, admitting that all Nurses are professionals? Oh no! Don't tell me this could lead to the end of "my nursing degree is better than yours!"? How horrible it would be if we all respected our individual training and talents instead of constantly putting each other down. What a terrible board we would have if RNs didn't put down LPNs, BSNs didn't put down ASNs, MSNs didn't put down BSNs, and PhDs didn't put down MSNs. If we don't spend our time bashing each other, whatever will we do? Where's the fun in that? That's SARCASM for those of you who might have missed it. That would be those of you who simply must put down others to feel better about yourselves. You're just a (insert title here) and therefore less than I because I am a (insert second title here) and hence much better than you. See, I have this article that proves I'm better than you. It was published in a national magazine and therefore must be utterly reliable. No, don't bother to refute it as I don't want to hear it. So leave my glorious presence and go about your miserable existence. Now those of you who are so insecure that you need bash other nurses can cut and paste the above paragraph, insert the appropriate titles and post it. That way we can all save time, the rhetoric will be the word for word the same and we can just skim over the inflammatory posts. Or perhaps, we really could stop bashing ourselves, admit that all nurses are professionals, and begin pulling together as a profession. Nah, that's too radical an idea. Forget I proposed it.

Having retired from the Army in 1996, as a Nurse, I can tell you that you must be prepared for a very different type of nursing. Your scope of practice in the military is much greater than it will be in the civilian world. But the hardest thing I had to adapt to was worrying about a patient's ability to pay their bill. It just flat is NOT a concern in military nursing and you'd be surprized what a burden it becomes when you have to think about it. Having to account for supplies used, having patients not take medications because they couldn't afford to buy them, were all very foreign concepts to me. I still like having these concerns. I much preferred it when I only had to worry about providing the best nursing care I could, without the patient's financial status coming into play. If you like it in the military, why not stay there? Good nurses are needed in the military as well and you'll be getting gobs of great experience.

Eveyone in the healthcare arena has someone supervising them. RNs may be required to supervise LPNs and make sure that they are doing their duties in an appropriate manner but that same RN has someone who is required to supervise them and make sure that they are doing their duties in an appropriate manner. Strange that I don't hear anyone bemoaning that burden on the system and it's increased patient safety risk. RNs and LPNs can both be either competent or incompetent. There is a Charge Nurse somewhere in every facility that is resposible for making sure that ALL nurses perform their duties properly. Frequently these Charge Nurses have a patient load they must carry in addition to their supervisory duties. This tired rhetoric of LPNs being a burden should be dropped. LPNs are Licensed Nurses and when utilized properly can be a great asset to any organization. The same goes for CNA's, who have their own skills and abilities to contribute any organization. I, for one, would hate to work in any organization that didn't use LPNs or CNAs. On the issue of skills and abilities, as Nurses we should be willing and able to perform any duty of any person assigned to unit. No task should be "beneath" us to peform for our patients. It doesn't matter if the task is "skilled" or "un-skilled" if you are available to perform and it falls within your abilities to do so, then you should perform the task. If any Nurse is unwilling to perform a necessary task because it is "beneath" them, they should move onto another career field because they no business in the nursing profession. Nothing irritates me more than the healthcare "professional" who is too good to empty a bed pan or wipe a patient's butt. I'm not saying anyone here said that, it's just a pet peeve of mine.

Nurses don't learn technical skills? LPNs aren't doing high levels of assessments? Gee when I went to LPN school we leaned all those "technical" skills only then they were called "essential nursing skills" as were the assessment skills we were trained in. These days, in NC, LPNs still use these essential nursing skills (to include venipuncture, EKG, routine waived lab tests, IVs, patient assessment etc) on a daily basis. In fact RNs do so as well, what with those being essential nursing skills. While it is true that many RN programs are getting away from essential nursing skills and teaching more esoteric stuff such as the "theory of nursing", any program worth attending still teaches the "technical skills"