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Hi all, I have been fruitlessly doing searches on Penn's and Jeff's NP programs and have not been able to find enough opinions to adequately compare the two. I am specifically interested in hearing about their acute care programs (leaning towards peds at the moment but also interested in opinions on the adult programs.) Background: I completed my BSN at Jeff and, while I felt I got a solid education, the program had some disorganization that I was not happy with. I have friends who have just started the Jeff NP program full-time but they are not far enough in to give a good opinion. One thing which I do not like about the Jeff NP programs is that some of the core courses are only taught online. I currently work in the nursing school at Penn and the faculty here are, not surprisingly, talking up their program and urging me to go here. I know Penn's NP programs have a good rep, but I have not been able to find opinions from actual students, other than a comment from a sister of a friend (WHNP) who said she did not like their "self directed learning style". Not sure exactly what she meant by that since Penn is not big on online courses. Side notes: I've already been accepted to Jeff's program and had to take 3 grad classes as part of my BSN. I don't think this is enough to sway me to continue with them for my MSN though. Money is not a factor as I plan to do my masters part-time and have an employer pay for it. If anyone can share anything with me about either of these programs (acute care specifically, or the school in general if you are in FNP,PNP,WHNP, etc), I would greatly appreciate it! Many thanks in advance.

I think the FACT and 2-yr uniforms are different because I'm almost positive last year's FACT class had the same uniforms as us. Here is what they look like: http://landau.com/dept.aspx?gp=women&dsp=Women's%20Whites&pro=1909 The shirt - eh. They probably could have chosen a nicer one. The pants don't look that bad because the shirt covers them pretty low on the hips, but they are very uncomfortable and heavy.

Sneakers are allowed, but whatever shoes you choose have to be leather and all white. I don't know how picky they'd be if you chose a sneaker that has, say, some silver on the side, although I'd imagine they'd notice. Students must be head-to-toe white so as not to be confused with actual hospital staff. (hard to tell tone from text, so please read sarcasm into the previous statment A tip - they will try to force you to buy hideous elastic waist pants; don't do it. Go to a store near campus and buy white scrub pants (most people bought dickies). I haven't heard of any instructors noticing or caring that students do this. Have to buy the ugly shirts though. No way around that one.

Glad I could help :)

Hi Apoptotic, No, you do not have to go to the hospital the night before to write up care plans. I had heard many programs do this but so far, we have not had to (I assume because our schedule is so full already that would be nearly impossible). (Not sure about the 2-year program, but I don't think they go to the hospital the night before either.) The first rotation (med/surg) is done completely at Jefferson. Starting with the second rotation, they begin adding in other hospitals (for example, we just chose our telemetry rotations and the choices were for units at Jeff, Bryn Mawr, Riddle, AEMC and Virtua). I've heard the hospitals are different for each rotation from the second rotation on. The way you choose the rotations is the same for all of them (the first med/surg rotation included). They give you a list of options which includes day/time/instructor/unit/hospital, and you list your first three choices. They try to give you one of your top 3, but it doesn't always work out that way. For med/surg I was given a rotation I hadn't chosen at all, but for telemetry I got my #2 choice. We have been told we need to do one weekend rotation (either S/S or S/M) during the year. Not sure if they're actually tracking this. (Note: they don't guarantee anything, but if you have a special circumstance that requires you to have/not have a specific schedule - eg. a wedding so you don't want a weekend rotation - you can note this on the form. It's up to them if they take your circumstance into account, but it seems that they usually do.) Think I mentioned this before, but rotations are either three 8-hour days per week (M-T-W) or two 12-hour days per week (S/S, S/M, M/T or T/W). Hope this helps! Let me know if you have any more questions.

Yes, you pay the FACT tuition in two installments. We just received a tentative schedule for the rest of the year. In case anyone is interested in exactly how things are structured, here is the schedule for the current year. The quarters run into one another. There are breaks, but not always between quarters. 1st quarter (summer): May 22 - Aug 15 (med/surg rotation) (break last 2 weeks of Aug) 2nd quarter (fall): Sep 2 - Oct 10 (telemetry rotation) Oct 13 - Nov 14 (OB rotation) 3rd quarter (winter): Nov 17 - Dec 23 (peds rotation) (break for Thanksgiving week) (break for Christmas week) Jan 5 - Feb 13 (neuro/psych rotation) 4th quarter (spring): Feb 16 - Apr 1 (community rotation) Apr 6 - May 15 (complex care rotation -- ICU, ER, etc) May 29 Graduation Hope this helps

I'll try to answer these questions. Not sure about the rest of the program (they give us info at the last minute usually so we have no idea how the next quarters will go), but for the first quarter: we started the last week of May, will have our last clinicals and class this coming week, and then finals the week after. We will then have a two week break and start back right after Labor Day. I believe there is at least a one week break between all quarters, but Tay can answer that better. Ah money, the bane of my existence at the moment. You can only apply for Stafford for ONE year, so $12,500 for the entire FACT program. This gets split into two payments of $6250 which are applied to your tuition bill in July and then again in January. (Jeff sends you a bill in May when the program starts, and you have to figure out how much money you're expecting in loans, and pay them the balance. They'll wait for July for the loans to be dispersed, but you owe the balance right after class starts.) Regarding clinicals, I think it depends on if a person had any previous experience in a health care setting. I had worked in hospitals before so the environment wasn't foreign. Those of my classmates who had never stepped foot in the hospital before had a little bit longer of an adjustment period in terms of comfort of being on the floor in general. Regarding comfort with VS/assessments, most of us were in the same boat and had not had much experience. I think I had mentioned before - the first month of the program you are not in clinical. Instead, they have you attend labs where you learn things like taking VS (you have to do them on at least 25 people) and you get exposure to things like giving meds/insulin, inserting foley caths, wound care (all done on mannequins/fake arms). I think most of us were pretty comfortable with VS by the time we got to the floor. For the head-to-toe assessments your clinical instructors walks you through it in the beginning (and you also observe the RNs doing their assessments) and then after a couple of weeks you do them on your own. In my particular clinical group, we also never do procedures or give meds unless our clinical instructor is by our side. (Other instructors let the RNs supervise us doing these.) As a rough estimate, I would guess it took a good 1-2 months for us to feel like we were very comfortable on the floor. Don't stress about clinicals though. The instructors are very supportive and never leave you hanging out there wondering what to do (which is what I was afraid of). Also, there are 8 students per clinical group, so there's always help around if you need it.

No problem! I'm glad to help. :) Depends on the person if he/she uses a study group. I know some people who study together regularly every week. The group I tend to study with -- we usually study on our own and then get together right before an exam for an hour or two to go over stuff. Usually you'll realize you know some things better than everyone else, and they know some things better than you do. For the health assessment practical, most students are planning to get together with other students to practice on each other. I had heard that the people in this class tend to become close pretty fast. I would say that's true with a caveat -- about a third of the class I am very close to already, a third I am friendly with, and a third I couldn't recognize by sight if they were right in front of me. (We're a class of about 100.) You'll find your niche of students, become friends with them, and you help each other out. Even if I'm not regularly studying with people, I always feel supported and like I have a group I can count on to ask questions, bounce things off of, vent, etc.

Apoptotic, regarding the PDA, they strongly recommended the Palm TX. You can pretty much get any one you want; the only thing is Jeff IT only supports certain models. I know classmates of mine have all different PDAs and no one has had any problems they couldn't figure out. The software company has a good customer service dept so if you have issues with that they can help. AtomicWoman, my first degree was in psych/bio. Degrees/former careers for people in my class include the following: bio, chem, psych, health management, finance, journalism, accounting, pharmacy, graphic design, law, teacher, artist, police, firefighter, paramedic. Just about any background you could think of, it's represented. I'm about to turn 33. I wouldn't worry about age as a factor in the program. If you want something and are motivated, that's most important. The average age for the FACT program is listed as 32, but I've found there are a fair amount of pretty young people in my class (very early 20's). There are also a lot in our 30s and 40s, and a I think a small handful in their 50s. Much more than age, finances can be a stumbling block. Not sure if this has been made clear on the website, but Jeff stopped the scholarship program (one month before we started the program, which caused a lot of anger). I'm not sure if they are planning to continue it in the future, but as of right now Jeff doesn't need many entry level nurses so no scholarships. Tay, Thanks for the info. I was wondering about the rest of the program and they haven't given us much info yet. How long are each of the quarters? Are they all 3 months long? You mentioned that they consider us seniors around November, which is when I figured the fall quarter would end. I checked the fall classes we registered for though, it looks like the second quarter runs from Sept-Dec, which doesn't make sense.

Sure thing. Pharm book is Pharmacology for Nursing Care Sixth Edition (Lehne). Patho and Nursing Management use the same text: Medical-Surgical Nursing Seventh Edition (Lewis). If you decide to do the program, they make you buy a book bundle with all the books for the year; the bundle is discounted from what you would pay for the books separately. Even if you do have some of the books and just want to buy the others, it would probably be the same price or cheaper to just buy the bundle. Also as an FYI, they sometimes change the books from year to year. They told us the Pharm book we have now is different than what they used last year. Also as an FYI, Jeff requires a PDA. Sometimes this is included in the bundle. Ours wasn't this year; we had to buy it and the software separately. Nursing school is expensive. Love the PDA though. Great for clinicals.

Hi again, I currently have three 8-hour clinicals per week. I'm really going to try to get two 12s next quarter because I feel like I have less time than people who have 2/week. I'm on the 7-3 M/T/W rotation. We usually get out a little late, so by the time I get home, I'm tired and don't want to study much. In contrast, the people with two 12s will sometimes (not always) get done early and then they also have a whole extra day to themselves. I live in West Phila and ride my bike so I have about a 20 min commute. Tons of people in our program from south jersey. Most take patco in. Some come from very far; I know of at least 2-3 people with an hour+ commute each way. How much I study/read depends on the week. Most weekdays I'd estimate about 3 hours/day and on weekends probably about 4-6 hours/day. Some weekends I won't do one thing because I need a mental break (that was this past weekend). The instructors will tell you it's healthy to do that every now and then. I could have justified it fine all by myself, but that's good too. I had thought most of my time would be spent straight studying, but we actually have a fair amount of smaller projects that take up time. My estimate of how long I spend studying includes these. (For example, we had to write a report on the support group experience, a report on the day we spent in the OR, care plans for clinical, etc.) Right now we have 5 classes. The three main classes are pharm 1, patho 1 and nursing management 1. These are taught by body system, so that in a given week you might do GI and cover GI drugs, GI path and GI nursing care. The other 2 classes are Health Assessment (this class has a lab) and Intro to Nursing (some busy work, laid back, not a lot of effort). I checked the schedule for our next quarter and it seems like the work load is a lot less. We've had exams in all of our classes except Intro (no exams for that class). They structure exams like the NCLEX exam (including style of question and amount of time given to answer each question) so we're used to them by the time we graduate. I thought the exams were fine and easier than I studied for. They try to prepare you by guiding your readings with questions to focus on, and giving you NCLEX style questions in lecture to try to answer. The core courses (pharm, patho, management) are tested at the same time (i.e. you have all 3 exams back to back on one day). Makes sense since they teach them together. The Health Assessment exam was written, but they also have a practical exam at the end where you show up, they give you a body system, and you have to do an assessment on a classmate. They told us exactly what they were expecting though, so it's not too bad, just practice. Well, I guess I've rambled on long enough. Sorry this is so long. I just remember what it was like when I was considering the program and I wanted as much info as I could find. So I thought I would share as much as I could in case it helps someone else. Any other questions, ask away. :)

Thanks for the info sunshine. I didn't realize they don't keep track. They made such a big deal out of the weekend thing I figured they would stick us with one sooner or later. AtomicWoman, Regarding the program, I am very happy with it. I'm glad I chose Jeff and think it is as solid an education as you can get in an accelerated program. The faculty are great, I feel supported, and the material is interesting and always changing. The thing that I personally have liked the best is that they really try to give you a little taste of everything and try to make it interesting. Since this is the kind of info I searched for on the program and couldn't find, I'll give you some concrete examples... we had a PT come to give a guest lecture on positioning/body mechanics (and then had to position each other in hospital beds and do things like go up and down stairs on crutches to see what it's like for patients); we've had numerous seminars in clinical on things like drains/wound care/body casting (this depends on your clinical instructor); we are encouraged to view an autopsy if we choose; we had to attend a patient support group to see the psychosocial side of things; we use SimMan models for things like listening to lung sounds, heart sounds, murmurs, etc. We've been told when we get to critical care, they use the SimMan / SimWoman models to simulate code situations. Some people have been less than thrilled with some of the disorganization, but I was expecting this to some extent in an accelerated program. I just go with the flow and things have been fine. I don't think the program is overwhelming overall but at times it can be. I have a husband, no kids. Some of the people in our program with kids seem like they're struggling; others are fine. Same is true for people with no kids, and/or no spouse/partner. I think it comes down to time management and prioritization skills and accepting that you'll never be able to do all of the readings (which is okay). Some of us are able to work part-time outside of school but I have not found the time to do this. I agree with previous posters that the first month or so was the hardest (TONS of reading and lab time). I've felt in the past few weeks that we've all settled in and think the rest of the year will be fine. Absolutely doable. I realize I'm only nearing the end of the first quarter, but if you have any specific questions I can try to answer them for you.

I'm in the FACT program now. Just wanted to add to what sunshine wrote. At the beginning of a clinical rotation, you are given a sheet with all of the different rotation units/times/days and asked to give your top three choices. The 8 hour rotations are M/T/W from 7a-3p or M/T/W from 2p-10p. The 12 hour rotations are from 7a-7p on either Sa/Su, Su/M, M/T, or T/W. Classes are all day Thursdays and Fridays. As sunshine said, you are not guaranteed one of your top three choices but if you have a specific reason for needing a certain day/time slot, they do take that into consideration. FYI- they require you to do at least one weekend rotation during the program; this would be either a Sa/Su or Su/M rotation.

Hi Nova11, Here are some links to threads on Drexel's and Jeff's programs that may help give you some more info (if you do a search, you'll find more, but these seemed most helpful): Drexel: https://allnurses.com/forums/f170/drexel-s-ace-program-149892.html#post1576643 https://allnurses.com/forums/f170/drexel-ace-program-214175.html https://allnurses.com/forums/f170/drexel-ace-program-241375.html Jeff APW: https://allnurses.com/forums/f170/jefferson-s-bsn-apw-students-grads-266637.html Jeff also offers a 1 year program similar to Drexel's ACE program. It is called FACT and is the same curriculum as Jeff's APW, just done in a shorter time. Here is a thread on FACT if you want to take a look: https://allnurses.com/forums/f50/thomas-jefferson-fact-program-213780.html I'm about to start the FACT program, so I can't give you an opinion yet, but from what I've heard the one-year programs do a good job of preparing students, and they cover the same material as the 2-year programs; they are just more intense. Most people seem to make a decision between the programs based on things like learning preference (would you rather cram everything in and get it done, or spread out the curriculum), cost, etc. From what I hear about most nursing programs in general, your education gives you a foundation, but you learn a lot of the stuff you need on the floor after you graduate. Again, I haven't been through a program yet, this is just what I've heard. I'm sure people who have been through this already will chime in with info for you.

Forgot to mention I'm specifically interested in the FNP programs if that makes a difference in the answers to my questions. Thanks!

Hi, I've been having difficulty finding specific info on Jefferson's and Penn's NP programs. I have heard very little about Jeff's MSN program; I know Penn's MSN program has a very good reputation, but don't know anything specific about it in terms of what students think. If you go or have gone to either of these programs and wouldn't mind telling me your opinion here or by PM, I'd greatly appreciate it! The specific questions I have are: (1) is the education at Penn that much better than other local schools that it's worth the extra cost? (2) if you go or have gone to either school, would you choose it again if given the choice? (3) is/was your program organized and taught well, how are clinical rotations, do you feel you got a solid education or was it more self-learning, etc? (4) how is atmosphere at Jeff vs HUP in terms of nursing-physician relationships? I've heard Jeff is more collegial and Penn (HUP) is more hierarchical but can't find evidence to confirm/refute this. (5) general question: should you choose a school based on where you want to practice? (eg. if you want to work at HUP you should go to school at Penn) Thanks for any and all opinions!

I hope she was wrong too! The person I talked to was someone named Kathy in the finance (?) department who seemed pretty sure of what she was telling me. If this is officially confirmed, I am planning to write the Dean to tell her how disappointed I am in how this whole thing has been handled. I was expecting to hear that maybe they couldn't give as many scholarships as last year, but not that they were canceling the whole program. They've been giving these for a very long time - a friend of mine received one of their scholarships 15 years ago! Does this bode badly for the financial status of the hospital in general?

Hi, I had been planning to apply for the scholarship for the FACT program. They had sent an email in late Feb saying they weren't sure how many they could afford to give this year, so they weren't releasing the application yet, but that we should start getting our ref letters and thinking about what to write on the essay. I called today to see when they were planning to release the applications and was told they decided not to give any scholarships this year. Has anyone else heard this? I am very upset not only that they decided, after many years of giving out work-commitment scholarships, to not give any, but also that we were never told about this or the possibility of it happening. When exactly were we to be notified of this decision?? Does anyone know what's going on and why they aren't giving any scholarships at all this year? I keep hoping that what I heard wasn't true.

Hi Hushpupgrl, The Drexel ACE and Jefferson FACT programs seem to be popular. They are the ones that are the most discussed here at any rate. I am getting ready to start Jefferson's FACT program in May. My reasons for choosing Jeff were similar to why Kmberle chose Drexel. Jeff's program is 12 months (wanted to get done as fast as possible), and I have always been impressed by their reputation in health care. When deciding where to apply, I only considered teaching hospitals and actually only applied to Jeff. Another reason I liked the FACT program was that I want to go on for the MSN degree (FNP), and Jeff accepts accelerated students into both programs (BSN/MSN) at the same time so you don't have to reapply. Also, they offer work-commitment scholarships (they'll pay for the tuition if you agree to work for them for 2 years). Here is a link to the program info if you want to take a look: http://www.jefferson.edu/jchp/nursing/fact.cfm They also offer the same curriculum in a 2-year program: http://www.jefferson.edu/jchp/nursing/accel.cfm I currently work at Penn and have been asked why I chose not to apply to the nursing school here. My reasons: the program at Penn is longer (it takes 2 to 2-1/2 yrs for accelerated program), more expensive, and focuses more on nursing theory than Jeff (I wanted more clinical, less theory). There is another thread on this board about how people chose their school: https://allnurses.com/forums/f50/why-did-you-pick-nursing-school-you-did-275377.html You might find this helpful for general considerations which I think would apply to schools in Philly. I agree with Kmberle that where you choose depends on what is important to you. Some basic things to start with: cost, length, focus of program, amount of prerequisites. Once you start looking into the programs, you'll likely find that you are drawn to some more than others.

Hi JerseyGir1 :) I live in Philly near Penn, so I'm close to center city. I agree with Mystic that it wouldn't be a bad idea for you to commute from your parents' for a year. If money's not an issue, living near Jeff would be great, but it's so expensive to rent in town. The clinical sites can be all over the place from what I hear, so it's likely even if you lived on campus that you'd be commuting at some point anyway for the clinical rotations. Speaking from personal experience, I lived with my parents for a year while we were looking for a house and, while it is a bit strange to slip back into old dynamics, it really wasn't that bad. Like Mystic said, you'll be so busy it'll go by quick. I vote for whatever option is least expensive for you. Looking forward to meeting all of you by the way!

Thanks so much! I appreciate the info. That is exactly what I was looking for. Good luck with the rest of the program.

Fil149 and Jello18966- Thanks for describing your experience of the FACT program. It was really helpful. I'm also starting the program this May and am always interested when people talk about the program because it's been hard to find a lot of detailed info on it. I was curious about the clinical placements. If I'm remembering correctly what I've heard before, you usually have clinicals at a few different hospitals per semester. Is that right? Do your clinical days each week stay the same or do they rotate (e.g. if you start out with Sunday and Monday for clinical days, does that stay the same throughout the whole semester or while you're at a given hospital)? Do you get to choose 2-12s or 3-8s, or is that decided for you? Thanks again for any info you can give. I'm glad to hear you like the program - makes me excited to get started.

Is money the main deciding point? If so, and if you have a gut preference for Boston, then I say go to the program you are most drawn to and deal with the extra cost through whatever means you have to (loans, etc). If you're torn between the programs themselves, read through this thread about why people chose the school they did: https://allnurses.com/forums/f50/why-did-you-pick-nursing-school-you-did-275377.html. That might give you some things to consider that you hadn't thought about. I'm starting Jeff's FACT program this year. I live in Philly and only applied locally, so I'm not very familiar with programs out of state, although I know Boston College is well respected. One reason I chose Jeff out of the local programs here is that it had the most clinical / least research emphasis (for the BSN part at least), which was important to me, coming from a research background. The main reason I chose it though was because Jeff is one of the most respected hospitals in Philly and I wanted to be able to say that I had a degree from there. It was very much a gut decision. Do you feel more that way about one school than the other? As the previous poster said, it sounds like you feel that way about Boston College. If that's the case, you can find a way to finance it. Edit: just saw this separate post on Boston College. If you haven't seen it yet, here's the link: https://allnurses.com/forums/f223/boston-college-master-s-entry-203808.html

1. Most important factor for me: I wanted a school connected to a respected teaching hospital. This narrowed it down to 2 for me in my area. The other reasons were then secondary. 2. Cost: How much was tuition for entire program (#3 relevant in this consideration)? Also, did school offer tuition in exchange for work commitment? 3. Length of program (I was only interested in accelerated programs; one school offered a 12 month program; the other only offered 2 years.) 4. Clinical vs research (I've worked in research for past 10 years and was sick of it; I wanted a program that was mostly clinical with less research/theory.)

Try this company: Perivascular Nurse Consultants http://www.pncnurse.com/ They offer one-two day certification courses in phlebotomy, IV, PICC lines, etc. The instructor is very good. There are no live sticks; you use a model for the test to receive the certification. Sometimes it takes a month or two for them to get enough people for the smaller courses (e.g. phlebotomy), but if you contact them and give them your name, they will let you know when they schedule a class.