KarenAR

Well, I checked back in after a while away...wanted to see where the thread I started ended up. Was EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED to see that it turned into yet another string of personal attacks and bickering over a topic OTHER THAN the OP. Mercyteapot and NurseGuy, you two in particular should have just taken your bickering offline and into the PM realm. You hijacked the thread Back to the OP: The problem is not one individual pharmacist, but rather the climate of "morality" that allows people to feel justified in judging others' actions and policing their neighbors. What's that thing in the Bible about a speck in the other person's eye versus the log in your own??? And how about the fact that (1) some BC pills are prescribed for things other than contraception, and (2) most Viagara scripts are not prescribed to promote procreation. The part of the issue that I find most disturbing is the fact that states are passing laws that protect pharmacists who consider themselves the "prescription police." Kwtlpn: Can you give more details about Planned Parenthood's work in this area? I went to their site at one point, and had a hard time finding info or links to "action" steps. Thanks.

Because it's not about the pharmacist's own personal beliefs; it's about the pharmacist wanting to dictate the patient's actions according to those beliefs. Because it's not about the pharmacist minding his own business and doing his job; it's about judging the patient. Because it's not about protecting the pharmacist from having to take part in something he doesn't believe in; it's about the pharmacist wanting to take away the patient's choice. Because it's not about pharmacy policy; it's about political policy. Because it's not about doing what's right; it's about doing what's "righteous." And because it's not just a prescription; it's a witch hunt. And it's ridiculous. And it has to stop. But it won't stop if we let it keep going. :angryfire

So, what can nurses do about this? What can citizens do about this? It IS only going to get worse. If you had told me 3 months ago that I'd be reading this in the news today, I would have said, "Things are bad, but they're not going to be THAT bad 3 months from now." I would have been wrong. WE NEED TO GET VOCAL!!!!!! This is not even about abortion, you know. It's about "empowering" people to sit in judgment of other people's actions. I wonder if these same pharmacists refuse to fill Viagra prescriptions, on the basis of sex being meant purely for procreational purposes? I don't have the stats, but I'd venture a guess that most Viagra patients are married to women beyond childbearing years... And here's what my mom (a preacher's wife, no less!) had to say about it. I liked her response so much, I thought I'd share it: When a pharmacist is this much into not dispensing drugs with significant mechanisms to stop human life, they'd better be VERY up on all the side effects of everything they dispense. And they'd better advise CVS not to sell peanuts, since peanut allergy kills many children. And they'd better be sure none of their stores sell narcotics or cigarettes, etc. Heck, for that matter, they better be sure they don't sell water in their stores, either. Too much of that can drown a person. I'd add that if they're working in CVS, they really have a problem since most of the products they sell are used in and even promote the seven deadly sins: PRIDE (mirrors, cosmetics), SLOTH (lawn chairs, foot massagers, TV Guide), GREED (books on business success and making money), GLUTTONY (Snickers, Doritos, Cokes, Oreos), LUST (pretty much any magazine on the shelf, cosmetics again), ANGER (I know it's not something they "sell," but do rude cashiers count?), ENVY (anything that promises it's better than the competition or will make you prettier or smarter or in any way better than your neighbor)...

(Sorry in advance if not supposed to post articles...haven't been on the site in a while and can't find the rules about this.) Thought you all would want to know about this. -K. ========== From http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=710&e=1&u=/usatoday/druggistsrefusetogiveoutpill Druggists Refuse to Give Out Pill By Charisse Jones, USA TODAY For a year, Julee Lacey stopped in a CVS pharmacy near her home in a Fort Worth suburb to get refills of her birth-control pills. Then one day last March, the pharmacist refused to fill Lacey's prescription because she did not believe in birth control. "I was shocked," says Lacey, 33, who was not able to get her prescription until the next day and missed taking one of her pills. "Their job is not to regulate what people take or do. It's just to fill the prescription that was ordered by my physician." Some pharmacists, however, disagree and refuse on moral grounds to fill prescriptions for contraceptives. And states from Rhode Island to Washington have proposed laws that would protect such decisions. Mississippi enacted a sweeping statute that went into effect in July that allows health care providers, including pharmacists, to not participate in procedures that go against their conscience. South Dakota and Arkansas already had laws that protect a pharmacist's right to refuse to dispense medicines. Ten other states considered similar bills this year. The American Pharmacists Association, with 50,000 members, has a policy that says druggists can refuse to fill prescriptions if they object on moral grounds, but they must make arrangements so a patient can still get the pills. Yet some pharmacists have refused to hand the prescription to another druggist to fill. In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman's prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious views. Some advocates for women's reproductive rights are worried that such actions by pharmacists and legislatures are gaining momentum. The U.S. House of Representatives passed a provision in September that would block federal funds from local, state and federal authorities if they make health care workers perform, pay for or make referrals for abortions. "We have always understood that the battles about abortion were just the tip of a larger ideological iceberg, and that it's really birth control that they're after also," says Gloria Feldt, president of Planned Parenthood (news - web sites) Federation of America. "The explosion in the number of legislative initiatives and the number of individuals who are just saying, 'We're not going to fill that prescription for you because we don't believe in it' is astonishing," she said. Pharmacists have moved to the front of the debate because of such drugs as the "morning-after" pill, which is emergency contraception that can prevent fertilization if taken within 120 hours of unprotected intercourse. While some pharmacists cite religious reasons for opposing birth control, others believe life begins with fertilization and see hormonal contraceptives, and the morning-after pill in particular, as capable of causing an abortion. "I refuse to dispense a drug with a significant mechanism to stop human life," says Karen Brauer, president of the 1,500-member Pharmacists for Life International. Brauer was fired in 1996 after she refused to refill a prescription for birth-control pills at a Kmart in the Cincinnati suburb of Delhi Township. Lacey, of North Richland Hills, Texas, filed a complaint with the Texas Board of Pharmacy after her prescription was refused in March. In February, another Texas pharmacist at an Eckerd drug store in Denton wouldn't give contraceptives to a woman who was said to be a rape victim. In the Madison case, pharmacist Neil Noesen, 30, after refusing to refill a birth-control prescription, did not transfer it to another pharmacist or return it to the woman. She was able to get her prescription refilled two days later at the same pharmacy, but she missed a pill because of the delay. She filed a complaint after the incident occurred in the summer of 2002 in Menomonie, Wis. Christopher Klein, spokesman for Wisconsin's Department of Regulation and Licensing, says the issue is that Noesen didn't transfer or return the prescription. A hearing was held in October. The most severe punishment would be revoking Noesen's pharmacist license, but Klein says that is unlikely. Susan Winckler, spokeswoman and staff counsel for the American Pharmacists Association, says it is rare that pharmacists refuse to fill a prescription for moral reasons. She says it is even less common for a pharmacist to refuse to provide a referral. "The reality is every one of those instances is one too many," Winckler says. "Our policy supports stepping away but not obstructing." In the 1970s, because of abortion and sterilization, some states adopted refusal clauses to allow certain health care professionals to opt out of providing those services. The issue re-emerged in the 1990s, says Adam Sonfield of the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which researches reproductive issues. Sonfield says medical workers, insurers and employers increasingly want the right to refuse certain services because of medical developments, such as the "morning-after" pill, embryonic stem-cell research and assisted suicide. "The more health care items you have that people feel are controversial, some people are going to object and want to opt out of being a part of that," he says. In Wisconsin, a petition drive is underway to revive a proposed law that would protect pharmacists who refuse to prescribe drugs they believe could cause an abortion or be used for assisted suicide. "It just recognizes that pharmacists should not be forced to choose between their consciences and their livelihoods," says Matt Sande of Pro-Life Wisconsin. "They should not be compelled to become parties to abortion."

I'm not saying you were wrong at all...in fact, I think you are totally "in the right." But - does the chain of command start with speaking directly to the person you're having the problem with, and then going to the supervisor if/when that fails? (I'm genuinely asking here...) Even if you technically should have started by talking to Charge Nurse directly, I can certainly see why you didn't! "Freaky" seems to be an understatement (?). I am baffled as to how Charge Nurse gets to be Charge Nurse when she acts so childish...and I am baffled as to why should would bring your family into it at all? Weird. Does she know your family and/or do her kids go to school with your kids? If so, I would definitely take her comments as a threat and would go up EVERY STEP of the chain of command (including the DON and the HR dept.) until I found someone willing to address this issue with Charge Nurse. (She should be severely reprimanded for her statements and retaliatory actions.) You are right on the money turning in this writeup to the DON, in my opinion. BTW, I also think you handled it very well and very professionally when she brought your family into it. This was a great response: Good job! You kept a "cool head" and said exactly what you should have said here. Called her on it and set the boundaries!

Had it twice this past winter...two cases just two months apart. The second one was the doozy. Kept me out of work for 2 weeks straight b/c the first antibiotic (Augmentin) did not do the trick. So my doc then put me on a fluoroquinolone (can't remember which one). I gargled with salt water - which did nothing. Then I started gargling with 1/2-strength hydrogen peroxide. That and the new antibiotic kicked strep's butt.

RealNurseWitch - My first magazine job was for a company headed by a ROYAL jerk. He and I were like oil & water. Thankfully everyone else I worked with there was wonderful (except for two others, who were the jerk's brother and sister). At that job, in 1995, I was salaried at $12,000 a year, working full time and plenty of overtime, and had NO benefits. But it was the only real magazine publisher in town, and we did put out good products that we could be proud of, so I stayed for a while. Finally got a raise - to a whopping $14,000/year. Then finally decided I couldn't afford to work there anymore, so I left. Was a crappy job situation, but gave me good experience!!!

Heart: Yep, I forgot to mention it was an accelerated program!!! I think if it had been a "full-length" program, I probably would not have finished nursing school. But my program was so fast, I was out and working before finally deciding that nursing (at least bedside nursing) is not for me! Hellllllo Nurse: I am so sorry that the career you'd rather be in has "dried up" like that. I think it is really cool that you love that work, though. I don't hear that about manufacturing very often. Pretty cool! Well, here's hoping the industry makes a comeback in the U.S. for you and everyone else in the same boat! ; ) RealNurseWitch: There's lots of stuff you can do with art/design/illustration (as I'm sure you know already!). Have you ever thought of being a designer for a company that produces health-related products (anything from pharmaceutical packaging to promotional pens to patient education materials or patient education websites or nonprofit health organizations' websites, etc.)? Don't give up on it, if it is your dream. I also thought there weren't any jobs in editing where I'm living now, but I found a great one via careerbuilder.com. You can sign up to get e-mails on jobs that match your interests...and just keep that info coming to you while you continue to work as an RN. Just curious, how was your first design job "a miserable failure"?

Bob, I'm curious: Did you mean that you worked in another field before nursing, and you can't go back for some reason? Or did you mean you didn't work in something else, but would switch back to it if you had?

Bob, I'm curious: Did you mean that you worked in another field before nursing, and you can't go back for some reason? Or did you mean you didn't work in something else, but would switch back to it if you had?

Thank you, Angel337! Yep, I stuck it out as long as I could, knowing that the first year is especially hard, and not wanting to give up too soon. If I were 10 years younger, I probably could have stuck it out longer, and it would've gotten easier. But I knew that staying in it would be a surefire route to misery, for me, at this point in my life. You should look into writing for Nursing Spectrum! They want writers who are RNs. It could be a good segue for you. Feel free to PM me if you want more info on that! Thanks again! :)

Thank you, Angel337! Yep, I stuck it out as long as I could, knowing that the first year is especially hard, and not wanting to give up too soon. If I were 10 years younger, I probably could have stuck it out longer, and it would've gotten easier. But I knew that staying in it would be a surefire route to misery, for me, at this point in my life. You should look into writing for Nursing Spectrum! They want writers who are RNs. It could be a good segue for you. Feel free to PM me if you want more info on that! Thanks again! :)

Hi there - I was a magazine editor until starting nursing school in May 2002. Graduated from nursing school in August 2003 and started working as an RN in September 2003. Passed the boards with flying colors, doing well at work according to supervisors and colleagues... ...but not liking the job! Just curious: Any other 2nd career nurses considering going back to their "old" jobs? (I actually have already resigned from the hospital and will start a new editing job in 2 weeks...so my decision's already made!) .

Brenda, I'm not an oncology nurse. I just found this site online: http://www.prostate.com/ProstateCancer/ProstateCancer.asp I hope it helps. My dad is going for an ultrasound of his prostate, and possible biopsy, tomorrow, so I'll be reading through this info too.

No one else in my family is a nurse, so they don't "get it." My husband is in a completely different field and doesn't "get it." My kids are too young to "get it." But you guys all "get it." In nursing school, I used to come to the site to read posts by "real nurses" to see what kinds of issues you/they faced, and to read about specialties I was considering. Once I graduated, it was a way to explore/express frustrations that I was having as a new nurse that I didn't feel comfortable sharing with new co-workers. Now, I am actually leaving nursing after less than a year on the job. But I'll probably still come to AllNurses.com because I am ADDICTED too! I was coming to the site pretty regularly to discuss politics...alas, those discussions usually deteriorate pretty quickly and I start to get angry and tense... :angryfire BUT THEN - teeituptom sneaks in some short, funny comment in his signature style, with that signature line, "keep it in the short grass, y'all" - and it always puts a smile on my face! :) :) :)

(1) Studying at Borders or Barnes & Noble because it was away from the distractions of home, yet there was enough noise (and coffee) there to keep me awake. (2) Coming home and taking a dip in the neighborhood pool with my hubby & kids occasionally...helped take my mind off of school. (3) The occasional rum & coke, or mojito. (4) Getting up in the early AM to study. (5) Studying outside while sunbathing with my husband (and while the kids napped). (6) A sense of humor. (7) Enough perspective to know that I didn't need to get an "A" on everything. (I wasn't planning on going back to grad school, mind you.) (8) Loud music. (9) Dancing with my kids to loud music. (10) Occasional exercise, esp. the Zumba workout videos.

My dissatisfaction stems mostly from the job itself. I do not like being in a profession where I am expected to know as much as the MDs and can be held legally responsible if I do not catch an MD's mistake -- yet I do not have the authority to obtain and apply special diaper cream without an MD order. I am expected to keep up with my neonatal patient's lab values and test results and anticipate/plan care based on those results, but am not at liberty to discuss these results with the patient's parents. Makes no sense to me.

Nursing is just ONE of the ways in which you can touch other people and "build the Kingdom of God." Hospital nursing saps me of the mental, physical, and spiritual energy needed to do that "building" - both inside the hospital and at home. Maybe another area of nursing would be a better way for me to do that, but not hospital nursing. It is wonderful for you (and your patients) that you know it is your calling and are able to give it your all. Some of us don't have exactly the same calling. Or some of us do, but there are problems within the field of healthcare that keep us from being able to fulfill that calling well! Being critical of those problems is not the same as berating. This is UNFAIR. Among us "complainers," there are plenty of us who work EXTREMELY HARD and are always there when our patients' call lights go off. We don't all have "screwed up personal lives," and we're not all terrible at bedside MANNER. Sometimes complaining and bitterness stem from people WANTING and WORKING to do the right thing, to do a good job, to be there for patients - but not being able to because the hospital environment does not make it possible. Kona's and Canoehead's posts were EXCELLENT on these points. One of my complaints about nursing that a nurse needs to be virtually SUPERHUMAN in order to be considered a "good nurse." We are expected to be omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent - not to mention perfect, because mistakes are simply not allowed or tolerated, no matter how small and harmless. None of us are THAT great, no matter how much we jog, study or pray, and no matter how stable our homes lives are.

You reminded me - The next day, when I went to the nursery to tell them I was ready to bring the baby back to my room, I told the nurse my name, and she went to look for the right baby. I said, "She was the 10-pounder," and the nurse immediately knew exactly which bassinet to go to! (And of course then proceeded to check ID bands, etc.) :chuckle

My 2nd baby was 10 lbs 8 oz. Birth was OK, 13 hrs total, vag deliv, no lacs, one dose of Nubain & that's it. I knew she was going to be big b/c during that last week, I could feel her head grinding my bladder/pelvis at the same time her feet were ramming my lungs up into my throat! My first was 8 lbs 15 oz and I knew this baby would be bigger just from the feel of it. However, my first had a bigger/harder head and THAT'S when I had the lac, although it was minor. Also no gest diabetes in my case. Although I am aware it is a risk factor for DM later in life.

Tweety, thanks for the info on St. Pete's. I knew there had to be much more to the area than what I saw in downtown Tampa! And you're right about salaries. This time last year, UNC Hospitals & the other Raleigh/Durham hospitals were starting new nurses at approximately $17/hour. I have heard that salaries throughout Florida are less than that. However, I'm in the Miami area now, and here, new nurses start at $21-23/hour.

I lived in N.C. from 1999-2003, in Raleigh, and went to nsg school at UNC-Chapel Hill. You won't find a good house to buy in Chapel Hill or Durham for $100-$200K, but there are lots of houses in that range "outside the Beltline" in Raleigh (outside I-440). Durham has had a bad rep -- for gang activity, shootings, etc. -- for a while. However, while I was there, there were many new things happening in Durham in terms of downtown development, a trend toward really cool warehouse lofts, etc., and I think it was improving. We looked at a house there and it was BEAUTIFUL, and parts of Durham are beautiful. I did my pre-reqs at Durham Tech and always felt safe going & coming from there. There is a TON to do in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill area, especially if you like sports and the outdoors. It's just a couple hours from the mountains (which are beautiful) and the beach (which is beautiful, and the Outer Banks are a real treasure). There are lots of good hospitals there as well. UNC Hospitals, Duke, Rex, WakeMed. Also, if you have school-age kids, the Wake County and Carrboro-Chapel Hill school systems are major pluses for this area. Wake County has a fantastic magnet school program/system, and the SAT scores of Carrboro-CH students are amazing. I have never lived in Tampa, but visited it in 1995, and found the downtown area to be QUITE boring. Other than that, can't tell you anything about Tampa! My sister has lived in Charlotte for about 10 years and has really enjoyed it. Feel free to PM me if you want more info on N.C. Good luck with your decision!

SORRY THIS IS SO LONG - but it should clarify some of my frustrations: I got my issue of Nursing2004 today. I generally flip through magazines backwards (no reason, except that they seem to "flip" better that way...and maybe because the meatier articles are in the back). So anyway, I'm flipping through and thinking, "well, this is what I do like about nursing...this medical info is really interesting..." etc., etc. THEN I get to the legal advice column at the front of the mag, where people write in with questions about various scenarios they've encountered. One nurse wrote about her hospital's policy of having every pregnant woman, no matter how far along, always be transported via wheelchair - no matter if they've come in to deliver or for a routine test. She relayed an incident in which a 7-mo-pregnant patient came in for an ultrasound, but there were no wheelchairs available. She called up to the doc's office and the doc demanded she send the patient on up, on foot via the elevator, and to not wait for a wheelchair. The legal advice was that if the nurse sent the pt on foot and the pt fell, the nurse would be liable. The advice columnist said the nurse should not have let the pt go to the office on foot, that she shouldn't let the doc bully her into it, etc. So my frustration is this: It is interesting to know about the medical things, the patho, the treatment for various diseases/conditions, etc. It is rewarding to "help" or "make a difference," etc. It doesn't even bother me to do some of the icky stuff and not get thanked for it. BUT - what bothers me is the fact that instead of doing any of these things, I so often find myself dealing with scenarios like the wheelchair one! Instead of taking care of the tasks that need to be done - instead of doing the most thorough and best assessment I can do - instead of being able to focus on the patho and theory behind my patient's condition and plan of care...I end up spending time trying to navigate issues like the wheelchair one. Also: I was telling a friend the other day that I am frustrated with things like being expected to act independently in a critical/code situation, or know all the pharmacological implications of every drug my pt's taking - yet, I have to get a doctor's order for which infant formula a baby can take before I can feed the baby. We can have policies that say parents have to step out of the NICU during change-of-shift/report time - yet, we don't have a policy against admissions coming in during change-of-shift (therefore, trying to get a baby's weight, start IV's, fax orders to pharmacy, etc.,etc. DURING report). We are expected to understand all the radiological/etc tests that are done in the hospital, and know what our pt's results are from those tests - yet, we cannot discuss the results with the parents at all (therefore, being forced to sometimes LIE to babies' parents). It's like nursing is the "catch-all" job in the hospital. In other professions, there is more of a hierarchy, a clear delineation of what kinds of tasks go to which role. But with nursing, you're doing everything from cleaning a baby scale to hanging vasoactive drips to faxing orders to pharmacy to suctioning a vent. You're doing a lot of gruntwork while at the same time, expected to have practically the same knowledge base as the M.D. Just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, I'm getting used to it, and I do understand that a lot of that gruntwork does have important physiological implications (cleaning:sepsis prevention, wrinkled linens:bedsores, etc.). BUT there is simply not enough time in the day for me to tend to EVERY DETAIL that needs to be tended to as a nurse - AND be there emotionally for my patients AND get all my charting done in a timely fashion!! So - these are just some of my frustrations! I'm 33 yrs old, just became a nurse 8 months ago. I think I am getting to the point in my life where I just don't want to put up with some of the absurdities in the nursing profession, as compared to other professions. I am old enough to know that life is too short and my family (hubby and two young daughters) is too precious to me to spend my days frustrated and wiped out. And I am young enough to go switch back to my previous profession, and to (eventually) recover financially from the cost of nursing school. The only things keeping me in the profession right now are (1) guilt about "giving up" on the investment I've made getting INTO the profession, (2) guilt about knowing that I do give good care, and maybe I should stay in it to counterbalance some of the BAD nurses I've seen, (3) and the thought that ONE DAY, which seems to be very far away, I will enjoy it more because I'll have more knowledge and/or I'll be in an environment I prefer.

Just wanted to say I think that is a GREAT idea, and I wish I'd done it. Honestly, if I had, I wouldn't have wanted to be a nurse...would have saved myself a lot of time, tuition money, and agony. But oh well, here I am, 7 months into the job. The jury is still out! We'll see if the job grows on me at all! ; ) (Actually, I like non-hospital nursing...just hate doing the hospital stuff, but doing it anyway to learn & get experience.)

Hmmm. Interesting. I have been a nurse for only 7 months, and I can tell you that many nurses I've met along the way seem to be sensitive underneath, yet they have "thickened their skin" to the point that they seem quite insensitive. I don't like it and don't want to end up that way. The pace of the hospital workload also does not allow for it...for example, I'm in the NICU and there is one mom in particular who likes to have her baby's care done a certain way. Nothing about the way she wants to do it changes the quality of the care....so I figure, be sensitive to her desires...she's the baby's mom after all. But many nurses are too rushed to be sensitive to her...ironically they waste more time complaining about her than it would take to just do the care. Bugs me a lot! This mom has no choice but to be here with her baby, why can't these nurses be sensitive to that? They don't put themselves in her shoes at all.