hogger

No I finished med school several years ago kind sir. I know what most MS4s are capable of. Much more than SRNAs or at least the ones going into anesthesia are especially if they’ve already done a few anesthesia or cc rotations. If one is going to argue equality in anesthesia it’s better to say that physicians are often overtrained for it than to say physicians are morons and nurses are here to save the day with efficiency and intelligence. Nobody is going to buy into that argument nurses have their place in health care as do physicians both are equally important but the command pole ends with the physician and it likely always will those who don’t lie it should have gone to medical school Also im sure that med students come up to you on a daily basis and say “hey dr greenbolt why don’t you teach us things” The tides will likely not change as much as you think if you seriously believe anesthesiologists will go out of business there are always cases that will require physician performance even if many cases can be done by a crna which nobody is arguing about eye roll

Right dude. Nobody is going to believe that CRNA school better prepare people for anesthesia than a physician residency. Give me a break nobody is buying this garbage. Med students are pretty involved in rotations at the place I work at. Just as involved as the crna students. I do agree that those not doing anesthesia do anesthesia for an easy rotation but those actually going into it go full on same schedule as CRNA students and at my shack are usually better prepared The part about talking MS4 through nerves and jitters? Yeah sure most ms4 lost their nerves and jitters of the real world half way through MS3. They don’t need crna students to hand hold them through rotations — to add nursing students and crna students are also gradually given more autonomy that’s how training works it’s not just medical students and residents who get hand holding I feel like every post you put on this site downplays the role and importance of physician education. Did you not get into medical school or something and maintain a chip on your shoulder? Do you feel inferior to MDAs? Are you made they make upwards of 4-5 while you bite the crums of 1/3 that? I guess that would bother me too since the APPs make a fraction of what we do. That seems to be the only logical answer to your thought processes toward physicians. I wonder if this air persists in clinicals, if so I am sure surgeons just love dealing with that type of non sense. Dont forget if it wasnt for physicians you would have no one to give anesthesia to. But it is 2019 and large sums of nurses tend to think they can run hospitals independent of physicianS Its easy easy for those who have not done medical training to downplay it but in real life MSs have as much required out of them as PA NP crna students but this is a nursing website so I digress.

So essential PAs can now set up shop in whatever specialty they want in these states? It’s confusing since they aren’t trained in a specific area as NPs are. Can a PA in ND open up a rheum clinic and dish out 5 figure drugs that a family practitioner or internets cannot due to insurance requirements?

I never understood the nursing montage in regards to them thinking med students do nothing for four years.

I personally have more bite with midlevels than CRNAs at least CRNA school provides adequate training for most things. The fires my colleagues and I have to put out from NPs on a daily basis is disheartening

Med students touch patients from day one for four years. I do agree with the part you say though that for anesthesia training much of the knowledge gained in MD school is not required since excluding complications non pain fellowshipped MDA do not really diagnose chronic illness (but still need to know what they are for repercussions of the disease on giving anesthesio as you know. If you want to argue that all of medical school is not needed for safe distribution of anesthesia I will agree with you. The amount of cases over 1-1.5 years of clinicals at most anesthesia schools is not equal to the three years of pure anesthesia/critical care of an anesthesia residency. I left out the intern year since it’s an intern year that probably does not need to exsist but does serve it’s purpose in understanding medicine in general. Not all crna sxhools teach peripheral blocks also TBH though if CRNA want full autonomy go for it. If you think you can do heads and hearts day one out of CRNA school then be my guest but I’ll def will be referring any of my patients to centers that have MDA backup or MDA core for their own safety. I would bet many crna schools send students to facilities too small to even have heart lung marchines/ CTS ! What are you gonna do day 1 when you need to give anesthesia to that open heart even though you never saw one in school. Many places don’t even let non chest fellow MDA in those patients

Essentially the studies done by ASA show MDA is better. Ones done by AANA show crna are the same but not counting for near misses where anesthesiologist saved the day. Plus the patients taken care of by CRNA are just not as sick. Nobody is doubting crna ability for most cases but for all? That’s pushing it since MDA usually do heads hearts and trauma. Sick patients requiring surgery are often transferred to tertiary centers with MDA

This is like one of the most condescending posts I’ve ever seen. You talk to people like they are children if you disagree with them yet you are only a student crna. He makes valid points in stating that crnas have a fraction of the training of an anesthesiologist. They are good for bread and butter cases and nothing else unless they have a physician supervising them. But then again an ms 3 can do anesthesia for a bread and butter case as they let us back in medical school while they played on their phones

I bet the surgeons you work with never make fun of you in the lounge. I’m sure your supervising anesthesiologist also loves you with that nurse is god attitude. Or are you still a student at MTSA

I am not of anesthesiologist specialty but have to agree with what offlabel says. A lot of my surgeon friends work well with both crna and physicians but think it’s ridiculous that nurses are trying to blur the lines between anesthesiologist physicians and nurse anesthetists. If there was any question of competences then one should be OK with being called an anesthetist.... not further earning a doctorate in nursing and then attempting to change title to anesthesiologist. Its nothing more more than an attempt to blur the lines between physician and nurse in order to confuse patients. if CRNA are comfortable in their role then why hide what you are? It makes my surgeon friends chuckle and glad I work outpatient and not with CRNAs attempting to be real doctors and making the CRNAs who enjoy their profession as is.

Usually if the first place one here’s of something is on a nursing forum it is no less than propaganda for midlevels. We hear all the time the need for physician oversight is so great but not everyone wants to blindly do it now since many of your kind graduate from online nursing programs. Most I know only supervise pas of nps they knew before school. But if what you said was true true it must be why dr hospitalist groups are offering us ridiculous salaries since we aren’t needed

I know these are overblown statings since I work for a similar type of company and know of this not happening. Actually many hospitals are limiting midlevel scope due to declining educational standards and hospitals have picked up on this and even in states that require no collaborate hospitals subsequently still do. This is a forum however so truths are not to be expected to be prevelent plus making it sound as consults come to an area since midlevels are the hospital service is one of the more ridiculous things I have heard lol. I’ve never seen that on s job recruitment ad!

It is possible at some places but not most. Not at mine for sure. Nor do the studies explicitly state that. It’s still a comparison of residents vs midlevels who had probably never rotated in the icu before this rotation. So they are actually doing well keeping up

No I would agree having nps around is great but the major np groups are not welcome to the limitations that need to be in place. We couldn’t function without mlps since there are too many patients and not enough of us to go around. But we can’t forget that nps only make up a tiny amount of pcps even and in most places they are managed by attendings. When it comes to primary care it’s a moot topic often. It’s hard to really do a terrible deed to a patient and monitor outcomes in those studies. Too much moving of patients around to different providers , referrals, non compliance etc. I think most people could manage htn and dm adequately which is what most studies monitor. Since that makes up most mortality. But the things missed by mlps are missed very often and those aren’t really monitors by studies since the disease occurances are so infrequent the missing of RVHtn in a younger person barely shakes the statistics. Hence why I am for mlps but they should not be given equal rights nor work alone. But again physicians are part to blame because they love the cities and the coast and most sadly it’s our fault the interior is left to MLPs often i think we all know a burger in hand daily means more than your pcp

here is the study i see most often quoted. it states acnp and residents all share supervision by fellows and attending. this is the type of garbage that gets thrown out there. literally everything gets the final day through attending physicians yet midleveld act as if they did all this on their own. in addition they compare medical residents on icu rotation. why is it acnp vs residents? they aren’t even fully trained yet https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4944779 ”Sharing of fellows and attending physicians was equal’’ honestly can’t wait for the day an np run hospital emerges and the crap hits the fan when no consults are available