patnshan

Looks like vanderbilt has a few dual programs http://www.mc.vanderbilt.edu/nursing/siteindex.html Good luck! Pat

Yep, it's all individual in terms of what one comes into a program having. I am one of the folks you elude to in the posts. The training is why I chose one over the other, everyone has different reasons. My part in the arguement has always been the training itself, not what you come into it with. Being an RN, RT, OT, PT, whatever is not being a "medical practitioner/provider/whatever you call it". You can't just jump into this without adequate training. Where the debate lies, I think, is what is adequate training? What I think is spelled out in the other post:D Pat

Way too much of a generalization here. Just trying to keep you honest:) Pat, PA-C, RN, MPAS

I don't see any difference here. I think that this, as with any generalization is inaccurate. You will see places where PA's are more respected and places where NP's are more respected. That is personal preference stuff. No need for you to be worried about it. Pat, PA-C, MPAS, RN

You are right. The highly specialized programs such as midwife and CRNA have the edge here. But then again, you are locked into a specific type of practice unless you want to go back to school again. That's the beauty of FNP or PA, you can do anything you want at any time. Switch gears when it suits you. Pat

I didn't like nursing school. I thought it was a HUGE amount of "fluff" with very little substance. I also didn't like the professors at the university who were NP's, hadn't touched a patient in years, and were teaching us. They achieved critical acclaim in the nursing frontier for writing papers on hand washing and one's response to the color green in the hospital room:D Having an MD to work with allows me to sleep better at night. I know what I know, and know what I don't know. If a patient is particularily complex or particularily difficult (socially I mean:)), I can kick it "upstairs". I also believe that neither NP's or PA's have enough education to work without a MD or DO backup when needed. I don't mean in house, I mean available in some shape or form. It also gives the lawyers somebody with bigger pockets to sue:D I also chose PA based on my perceived (or real depending on your opinion) difference in the rigorousness (is that a word?) of the education. I looked at PA and NP programs at various universities, comparing their cirriculums. I saw a glaring difference, especially in the amount of clinical rotation time. I just precepted an NP student for three days in a week. That was her entire IM rotation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As an example, we did 8 weeks, full time on the medicine wards for IM. I know programs are different across the spectrum, as are the preparation of the applicants to these programs. If I had to do it now, given that I am married and have kids, I would go NP. I could do the same job I am doing now, despite IMHO, being less prepared for it. I could work full time and do it. I would have SIGNIFICANTLY less school loans to pay back than I do now. I had to quit work and dedicate my whole life to PA school for two years. I couldn't do that now. Pat, PA-C, MPAS, RN

Basically an urgent care attached to an ER. I agree that this would be a good place. I suggest the ER as well, one that see's adults and kids. Pat, PA-C, MPAS, RN Hospitalist Physician Assistant

Illinois is not a great state to practice in as a PA. There are some states that are better for PA's, some are better for NP's. In Wisconsin, I'd say it's pretty friendly to both professions. We have many dual job postings popping up all the times. Most departments in our academic center hire either or. As for the OP, the solution to the shortage should not be to shorten the schooling. I think that this is a terrible mistake. We are already expected to know a lot, rightfully so for the job we do. I am not sure what the solution is, but it is most certainly not to make the programs shorter or easier. Thanks, Pat, PA-C, MPAS, RN Hospitalist Physician Assistant

This is a common arguement with no basis. NP's and PA's are clinician's who are required to make medical decisions about patients. RN's do not and are not trained to do that. Pre-training clinical hours do not substitute for in-training clinical hours. With that, I will say that going through nursing school did help me with PA school but in no way substituted for the knowledge gained on clinical rotations. This is correct. I think this conclusion is correct, but is drawn from misinformation. It is that these employers see "midlevel providers" as one type on entity. I think most of them do not know the differences in the training. Emptying urinals does not give one ANY useful experience about how to diagnose or treat disease:D Pat, PA-C, MPAS, RN

In my opinion, most NP's do not practice what they were trained for. NP's are trained for health promotion, teaching, and other social type things. Most NP's practice acute care MEDICINE. Most of the NP's I work with in acute care MEDICINE are not even ACNP's, they are ANP's or FNP's. After awhile, they do a great job and I would have any of them take care of me. It is just that the answer to the OP's question is most often "no". I am not sure why this is. If anyone knows, please enlighten me. Thanks, Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

For clarification, an NP cannot practice independently in the OR. Pat

The clinical rotations during the NP and PA program is what really count. You are not a practitioner as an RN. I agree, RN or LPN experience should help you get into a PA or NP program and prepares you well, but does not substitute for training to be a clinician. I was well served by my training as an RN, but it did not make me need the clinical rotations less. Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

Sean, I agree with a lot of what you said but just have to clarify one of the things, just to be correct. Most (if not all, but I cannot confirm the all part) PA programs involve one year of full time clinicals. That is 12 month, usually about 50 weeks. These rotations are almost always 40 plus hours per week (my ER and surgery, 2 months each, were many more than that ). So, adding that all up is where people get the 2000+ hours thing. It is correct, likely more like 2500 hours. I am not quite sure where you got the 12-1600 thing? Bottom line, we have different training but compete for the same jobs. There most certainly are enough jobs for all of us. If you are unsure about that, check out the US BLS website and look at their projections. People choose NP or PA for a variety of reasons, some good, some not. Regardless, our goal should be to make both professions better at serving the patient. Also, all PA programs will be Masters degree granting shortly. Check out American College of Clinicians and Clinican Forum for ways we are trying to become united. Best Wishes, Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

The only reason I could think of would be to obtain a more thorough medical education, although there are other, less intensive ways of doing that. Pat

Yes they can in two to three years, just like everybody else. No advanced standing, just probably favorable recognition in the admission process. Kind of what Danielle said. Pat