Nitngale

I understand, to a lesser degree, what you went through. I'm not a nurse but will be going to school for lvn. My sister and I cared for our Mother at home for eight years. She was in a 'coma' from '97 to '05 (brain aneurysm) From the beginning the doctors wanted us to let her 'go' which would have definitely been euthanasia. For eight years, she never had an infection (she had mild seizures the first year) and we suctioned her constantly. We did not suction her the way the hospital protocal calls for. In fact we did very little that they told us to do but then we were in an 'at home' situation. There wasn't the 'hospital' factor of sepsis et al. She also had a stomach tube which we changed ourselves as well as the canula. In 05 she went into renal failure, which we found out about when she went into the hospital to have a broncosocopy (sp). They put her on fluids and meds and her bp plummeted. I have my own theory on that!. They moved her to icu and by then it was sepsis. Since I never left her side, I had the chance to observe the staff. I think the nurses had to wear two faces and yes many of them probably cry in private. I think it is worse for the nurses also because they are carrying out the doctors orders and have little say in the events which they have to monitor. In my Mother's case I asked the doctor to stop all meds. My Mother died within hours. At the end she did a gasping thing (like a fish out of water) and I asked them to administer more morphine. I think that was easier for them also. I consider what I did to be euthansia. It reminds of a movie I saw years ago called "they shoot horses don't they". I didn't want the medical staff to have to carry the burden for decisions I had been making all along. I think nurses are the strongest people I've ever met----and they do it in silence. As the years go by you'll develope a coping system that will allow you to live in both worlds. Good luck!

. The assumption that children are a burden on society is just wrong. The Children are the basis of our future as a country. Denying education or health care to our own citizens is bad public policy. I frankly don't give a rats behind about the origins of any childs family. I just want to see our society invest in children in a way that sets them up to become fully functioning members of society. The developmental research clearly shows that children who grow up in poverty, without benefit of proper health, vision, dental or educational care are far more likely to grow up to become adults who are clients of the mental health or correctional systems. Sorry to burst your reality bubble here, but the 14 th amendment is vague at best and actually meant as a reversal to the Dred Scot decision in the middle of the 19th century. Your interpertation of the amendment that citizenship is not granted to children of diplomats etc. is correct but it also is stated that citizenship shall not be granted to aliens here illegally. Living in California I personally know many (in my case Mexicans) whom not only have one baby but three or more and get benefits for all of them. You see the anchor babies are not only giving them a criteria for staying here but qualify them for welfare,food stamps, subsidized housing etc..I don't think anyone would deny help to ANY sick child----but the illegals have made it a way of life. The amnesty 20 years ago not only did NOT stem the flow it increased it 4X. As for poverty creating criminals-----the reality is that people with money commit crimes all the time, they just don't do the time because they can afford good lawyers. Was Ken Lay a poor undernourished criminal? There is poverty because society is a pyramid,with the wealthy elite at the top and the serfs at the base. You will not legislate or medicate away poverty or ignorance, since they are necessary to maintain the elite. The only difference with this new world order is that Americans are slowly becoming a third world 'country'.

sorry I didn't respond sooner, just saw your post. Since none of us were there and we get our info from the 'media', my opinion was developed by a doctor they interviewed at the time of the accident. He stated that it was policy (I don't know whoms) that treatment is given on scene. Her treatment 'on scene' lasted 2 hours. So much for window of opportunity!He went on to state that from what he had heard of her injuries---that they were very sustainable. It doesn't look good also that it took the French and the British years to investigate this one accident.

Don't forget that you can also apply for federal and state grants (meaning they don't have to be repaid) I know there is the Pell Grant in CA and another one. My experience with all those science courses they make people take, to include doctors is absurb. When my Mother was in the ICU years ago, I made it a little game to ask the various doctors and nurses what they recalled about the Krebs Cycle (Biology-respiration). Most didn't recall what it was at all and a few nurses new it had something to do with respiration. No one needed to know the actual sequence or chemical reactions. I think we should harken back to the days of the apprenticeships. If you want to be a doctor or nurse just shadow and be mentored by one for a pre-determined number of years. In the end, it's all OJT.

You're right, there is no nursing shortage. Just as there is no shortage of doctors or engineers. This is an excuse to import (mostly from third world countries) those whom would work cheaper then Americans. The problem for 'them' is that eventually, once the immigrant worker gets comfortable here they then demand higher wages. It is the same two tier wage system that the manufacturing companies started in the '80s. Years ago, I worked at a county jail, not in the medical field though, and there were very few RNs. There would be one RN per shift but by and large the medical unit was staffed by LVNs. And yes in many emergency situations the staff was slow to respond mainly because alot of inmates did, I won't say fake it, but it was stressful for some especially if they had never been to jail before and I think it played out medically------kind of like kids in school.

This is just my humble opinion, which is allowed under Ms Ruby's diversity quote. I would like you to ask the next ten non hospital affiliated people you meet if they think nurses have direct patient care. I think the majority if not all will say yes. Those of you who don't have direct patient care seem very defensive about the prospect of not considering yourselves nurses. You can be a researcher with a nursing degree (by the way that is another example of the corporates trying to save money, years ago you never heard of a someone with a nursing degree doing research----maybe I'm going too far back for some on you younguns). You can be an administrator with a nursing degree and on and on. When I classified LVNs and CNAs I said that NURSING had changed to include them in more patient care. They are part of nursing not nurses hence they don't take the NCLEX-RN. This seems to be a question of semantics. As for someones statement of working for free--don't be ridiculous, but every nurse I've met, with 10 years or less experience, has gone into it strictly for the money. Twenty years ago most men would never have thought of being a nurse and the ones that did were ridiculed. My neighbor quite his job as a police officer to become a nurse because he said he could make more money and not get shot at. On the internationl forums on this board the main questions other than visas is how much money they should hold out for. If the wages for nurses were to drop----how many would leave the profession to include those of you in research etc.... Don't get me wrong----I don't think RNs should change bedpans or make beds. In most cases it is the nurse not the doctor that notices and intervenes in saving a patient's lives, especially in ICUs where RNs do everything.

Well put :yelclap:

Actually Ms. Ruby, the reason for the break up of nursing duties was a monetary one. Back in the day, the nurse didn't do alot of things because there was a more limited technology. By breaking up nursing into CNA, LVN, RN (2 year) and BSN---it justified different pay scales. Old school nurses went to college for four years to be called a nurse. So they put in more hours and more money (in yesterdays monies) then todays two year RNs AND they did the dirty work. You go to the hospitals today and LVN's and CNAs do alot of the work with an RN in charge. Actually, your response has backed my position that most go into nursing for the money. That's fine, but a paper pusher is just that a paper pusher. If there is no shame in NOT doing patient care then be proud to call yourself an administrator. Even today the average person identifies nursing with direct patient care. Alot of schools interview perspective students nowadays; I wonder what song and dance about caring for people was done by many whom today want no direct contact with patients :uhoh21:

You can not be rational and do irrational things--just by definition alone. Unless it's the insanity defense. The patient was irrational at the moment of the outburst. There are many different types of patients just as there are many different types of humans. For WHATEVER reason someone acts out that is where your psychology training or experience should kick in and control the situation. I don't know what kind of places some of you work in but unless someone had a head injury I've never seen a patient react physically----verbally yes and that was usually from frustration. In any case management has always stepped in and in defense of the nurse. I think the relatives are harder to deal with. Anyway, that is the nature of the beast. That's like a welder saying he/she wanted to be a welder but not get dirty. If someone is "fragile", maybe they don't belong in nursing.

Yeah and then without ever getting out of bed, they phone the charge nurse, asking the nurse's assesment which means that the nurse is actually diagnosing. I witnessed this in the ICU (as a visitor). If you mean "'those people are everywhere" in the hospital ---then you (generic) shouldn't work in medicine. If you mean 'they' are everywhere in society---that's not true. I can think of many areas where people are neither sick, injured or old.

You know I can see your point on staff and management but the patients are ill and have more reason to be 'mean'. I don't get some of you guys. Nursing is about sick, injured, and old people. It's not modeling or acting. I think the main problem today with many people that go into nursing , especially those whom wouldn't have been interested in it years ago is the money factor. Twenty or thirty years ago, to be a nurse required a BSN, you didn't get paid sh*t and the doctors still treated you like crap. If you don't like sick, injured or old people------become a doctor

I don't agree with the term "sexist". It has a legal conatation which points toward discrimination. I've worked almost exclusively with men in male dominated jobs my whole life and there is a difference (on average) between men and women and the way they approach and perform a job. I don't think that one is better then the other just different. I quote from a former boss when I showed him that I could perform a certain task as well or better than my male counterparts. He agreed that I did but put it this way . He said, about 90%the men where I worked (there were 5000+ employees) could do the same work while only 15% of the women could. As for the education and actual performance of nursing, I think anyone with intelligence and persevervance can graduate-----but to be a good nurse, comes from the heart and has nothing to do with gender. I think gender does play a role when it comes to the patient's choice. How many men go to a female urologists?

Maybe they're just bad at trauma:rolleyes: I think it's the wine keepin' them alive:wink2:

Sorry about your Mother, SpaceNurse. I don't know how much I would trust European healthcare since the botched job they did on Princess Di back in '97

Rich et al: let me clarify what I said. I said 'society', not me, put those labels on men as well as women. As for empathy, I think that is gained more from experience than genetics. But women have a head start, in that society fosters these beliefs. It's funny 'cuz truck driver is one of the jobs I had considered. I think what you went through with a sucide in your family gives you a wonderful connection to many whom are ill, since many go through depression. I have met too many in the medical profession, usually doctors, that don't have any connection to their patients----and the patients can sense it.

Mexico has never really been an autonomous country. Even their presidents today are educated in America (Yale or Harvard) and then sent back as little puppets. That is why Mexico could never enforce their own laws or fight to keep their lands. That is also why an Austrian was able to be put in a ruling position. And it was America that they turned to, to get rid of him, after the American Civil war. The Indians and Spanish, whom later became Mexicans, were not in the same position educationally or monetarially as the founding fathers of the US. My boss, who is Mexican, told me that there is no 'free' education in Mexico. If you can't afford it, your children don't go to school. I find this deplorable since Mexico not only has natural resources but 20 billion dollars being sent back every year by their illegal (and legal) relatives that are up here. My grandparents too came from Canada in the 1930's and they had to wait before being granted entrance and get paperwork. I think the difference between Canada and Mexico is that most Canadians speak English, regardless of their race and they share a similar economic background, ie you don't get millions of Canadians down here working for minimum wage or less. :wink2: PS No one has ever 'discovered' land. America was a discovery to Europeans---that's all that means.

Thanks for the info! It sounds like you should have multiply personalities to work it:wink2:

Let's not generalize. Lets's be quite specific. I feel that as long as there is an American that is qualified and wants a job at the 'normal' rate----that the job should go to an American (I'm talking about in America of course). I know of no other country that gives jobs to foreigners like the US does. Then to top it off, many slots in our schools are saved for foreigners. At the tuition they pay, you can see why. I've worked in many fields and I see nursing going the way of the construction industry. If the 'business' of health care could outsource it they would. In many of these third world countries, they need their nurses more than we do. "Reading your ongoing rant"----a little hyperbole there wouldn't you say? '

Sorry to be so ignorant (I'm pre LPN), but what exactly is med/surg? It sounds like an Intensive Care Unit.

This is a good example of how these corporate hospitals are reaching out to foreign nurses and undercutting the pay. If only they could oursource the patients, there'd be no nursing jobs in the US at all.

I can't even believe this thread! What happened to the nursing 'shortage'? Maybe it's just another excuse to bring in foreign nurses and underpay them.

You don't need to qualify that you're not racist. This isn't about race. I don't want illegal Chinese, Dutch, East Indian etc... What does look racist is the new ruling that anyone here illegally EXCEPT Mexicans will no longer be ticketed but deported. Also why is it that if Cubans reach our shores they're given aslyum but not Haitians. You can't keep having a double standard. If you're illegal, you're gone. And these H1B visas need to stop as well. My neighbor originally came here from India by way of England. She has been here for 25 years----before H1B. Her family was wealthy in India (so much for huddled masses yearning to breath free) her kids are totally American to include those damn baggy pants. She told me that when they visit her parents in India people are always trying to pay her to adopt their kids and bring them over here. We really have no way of knowing whom is coming into this country. I predict in 5 years they will dissolve the border and refer to all of us as the American Union like they did with Europe.

Maybe they didn't assimilate during the 1800's (and it would have been the Mexicans and Americans not the Spainish and English) but the early Mexicans did. Today's immigrants have no desire to assimilate since very few have any desire to become citizens. My brother in law is Mexican, and his family has been here since the 1920's. The 'Illegal immigrants to Mexico" were invited by the Mexican government and they recruited Southerners to include their slaves. As for not coming here willingly you're right. There were many from Europe brought here as indentured servants or prisoners to the state of Georgia. The difference is NO one has to stay here. Anyone is free to leave at anytime. Those that chose to go back and start Liberia for some reason never severed their ties to the US and named many of their children after presidents of the US.