ChesterRN

Congrats on passing...You must feel great. BTW: Your comment really helps affirm the notion that information provided by allnurses.com does indeed affect peoples decision-making process related to nursing school.

Update: GW is now accredited by CNNE :w00t: For verification call: 202-994-5192 It's still unclear if GW NP Grads will be eligible for California NP certification, though.

Please provide an authority or reference that specifys in writing related to the problem you speak.

Actually, there's a lot to be said for clinicals and other school related field trips. One time when I was in 6th grade, our class went to the NASA science fair. After that, I really wanted to be a spaceman.

Thats an interesting point. I wonder what would happen if all 6,000 of us decided to go to another state?

What are you trying to say...that we learn more from our patients than from educators, powerpoint slides and books combined?!? Can it be true?

Very well said! As an educator and one charged with the task of hiring educators, I must say you are well aware of one of the most fundamental flaws in the provision of postsecondary education.

I'm not sure about these guides, but if they were anything like the ones I bought around 14 years ago or so, they only helped with confidence. One thing I did is bought a bunch of NCLEX books that were broken down in categories and used the index of the exam syllabus to guide my study. What I lacked, I looked up in the regular books in the exam bibliography to bridge the gap. Again, its all in your confidence. After you study for comprehensive exams, you may find yourself second-guesing yourself because you may feel like you haven't really mastered the material. You always have to give yourself credit for what you know, which is usually more than you think you do. The NCLEX books and exam preps will help prove that.

Back in the day, I went in with 4 other people and shared the cost...Do you have access to other folks in your area who are in EC?

Is it just me or does it seem like Liz and the OP are tag teaming EC without providing authroities? Also does EC now have an LVN-RN program as reported by the OP...I've never heard of this term used with any student of EC, although I've been out of the loop for awhile.

I must say that I feel there are trolls in the area. Time to put up or shut up. As an EC grad, working in CA with no history of every having one problem getting a job, I would really like to know the name of any hospital that wont hire EC graduates. Please name the hospital so I can personally verify, then forward this info to EC legal council. Otherwise, please slither away into your hole and stop providing misinformation about how EC grads can't get hired by certain facilities in California. It's clear on the other thread that you have an agenda related to EC. Your behavior is unfair, reckless and does a disservice to every EC grad, student, faculty and every organization that employs the 6,000 + EC grads working here in California. Sorry to be so blunt, but at least one troll has been doing nothing but slamming EC with impunity on another thread. https://allnurses.com/forums/f125/pros-cons-excelsior-program-152169.html

Filipino education certainly seams the way to go. Unfortunatley, when one of the hospitals I worked at about 6 years ago tried to recruit 89 nurses from the Philipines, wouldn't you know it, not one passed the NCLEX-RN. But, I'm sure the training is superior. Thats an interesting concept. When I took the CNPE with 18 others during the weekend seminar, all you can eat CPNE party, only 3 of us passed. And wouldn't you know it every LVN failed, and the three paramedics passed. And of course this hasn't caused any problems with holds and bed availability either. You're right, California is way ahead of its time, even at the expense of the patients and financial solvency of hospitals...or perhaps you work as a volunteer nurse.

Now now traumahawk, be nice...I think Liz is just troubled and misguided and wants to get to the bottom of things. You see, for us, there was no teaching--you prove it or your fail. You can do it or you can't. You're safe or You're not. Very little touchy feely stuff, and certainly no second chances. Its hard for those outside to understand. Most folks subscribe to the work hard and not smart approach and really don't understand the notion of where we come from; what its like to work in the field, to run an MCI, throw down a tube with no light, do an IO on a shattered pedi femur, work an algorithm until the box emptys, do a pleural decompression when theres barely a chest left or any of the critical thinking that goes along with that prior to us becoming nurses. Folks hear of the process, but don't really understand what's really behind the license. It's so easy to cast dispertions when there is so much ignorance related to the process. You shouldn't come down so hard on Liz. It's not like she requested a sticky for this thread, or was the second poster following the moderator after the sticky was established, or created links to the BRN decision, or the BRN's delightful response to the courts decision or EC's response (which is now a broken link), or in any way wants to put EC in a bad light...oh, maybe she did. I think that Liz is just concerned that EC gets a fair shake, just like the BRN gave EC a fair deal. I don't think Liz really has an agenda, right Liz?

Ok, I think were on the same sheet of music now. We both agree that the terminal end goal for any graduate RN is to be a safe clinician. I'm sure you would also agree that exercising safe clinical behavior does not cross a continuum such as health. For example, with death, there is no continuum; you are either dead or not. Just like being safe, RN's are either safe clinicians or they are not. If you can, try and follow this logic in the form of my questions. Do you think that the NLAN would provide programmatic accreditation to EC without reservation if the program produced unsafe graduates, or in anyway was not able to demonstrate that EC grads possessed knowledge and skills consistent with their standards? Also, do you think that all of the other BON's that accept EC grads are placing the consumers of nursing care across the country in jeopardy by allowing EC graduates to practice? Also, do you think the architects and administrators of NCLEX in any way would make the exam process available to program graduates who were unsafe? Also, do you think the Masters and Doctoral prepared nurses who actually administer the CPNE who are deans, associate deans and professors of traditional nursing schools would jeopardize their credibility in affirming safe and competent status on an unsafe nurse candidates of EC? Also, have you ever seen anything in writing from the California BRN which provides any documentation that EC grads have had more problems in the clinical setting than traditional grads--not slimy innuendos, I mean actually by name-EC? If not, why not? Do you think the reasoning for this is that the BRN, although delusional, may indeed be able to appreciate such terms as "slander", "libel", "defamation" ect.? These are some things to think about when you start to feel yourself gravitate towards the delusional extreme on the continuum of the BRN's way of thinking about EC.

Ok, now I think I see your point. You would be OK with the CPNE and EC if the above areas were tested. Is that about right? Here's what I think. Any generalist generic RN program is not worth it's salt unless students are exposed to at least 789 hours within a neuro intensive care environment and possesses skills consistent with that of a safe staff neuro nurse within a Level I trauma center. How much credibility would I have if I truly possessed this system of beliefs? The point I think you may be missing is that the overall goal of any generic (pre-licensure) program is to produce beginner clinicians who are safe and effect nurse generalists. It is true that EC doesn't test competency in the advanced areas that you have mentioned, insofar as psychometric domain, but let me tell you, all areas are covered within the cognitive exams, which are required of all NLAN accredited nursing schools. Again, the areas that you have mentioned fall well outside of the parameters of what beginning nurses do, or what they should be doing without more training in the form of an intensive orientation or skills workshop. Either way this is training that is considered "post licensure." It is crazy to think with the minimal exposure that any traditional nursing student receives in intensive care would provide for sufficient knowledge to function in that environment as a beginner RN. Again, safe, beginning nurse generalist is the overall goal of any program. This is what NLAN looks at before they put their endorsement on any program. But then again, perhaps you and the BRN know more about programmatic curriculum design and evaluation than national authorities who have actually procured Ph.D. scholarly degrees in curriculum design. Perhaps the BRN knows more than the scholars who possess advanced degrees in psychometrics who guide line item construction for NCLEX. Perhaps the BRN is right and the vast majority of BON's in the country are not when it comes to public safety. Maybe one day the California BRN will share its logic with us all, so us simpletons, the scholars, The NLAN, The NCLEX and the rest of the country's BON's can all learn.

Liz, I would completely agree with you if you weren't so wrong. Section 2736, subdivision (a)(2) provides that a nursing applicant seeking licensure in California must have either successfully completed required courses of instruction in an accredited in-state program or "successfully completed courses of instruction in a school of nursing outside of this state which, in the opinion of the board at the time the application is filed with the Board of Registered Nursing, are equivalent to the minimum requirements of the board for licensure established for an accredited program in this state." "Previously, the Board recognized Excelsior's program as equivalent to the minimum requirements of accredited programs in California, thus enabling Excelsior graduates to apply for licensure in California. The Board, however, recently concluded it has no authority to evaluate out of- state programs prospectively -- that is, before a nursing program graduate applies for licensure." So what major event took place to reverse the BRN's decision that EC grads were acceptable and now, that they are not, if safety was not considered an issue? Isn't that what the BRN is charged to do? Perhaps it was related to this in the Courts opinion: "In August 2001, the Board received correspondence from the statewide organization of Public Health Nursing Directors expressing concern about the skill level of new graduates from some nursing schools." Hmmm. "Some schools?" Could they mean EC? Why not list them by name? Wouldn't that strike at the crux of the BRN's assertion? Perhaps because they didn't have that little known thing to back it up, like er huh EVIDENCE! Then, they dance around the issue, while hoping, Liz, that those who are less than astute observers of detail and fact would not notice in the following assertion, "The Board's subsequent inquiry revealed that the nursing education provided by Excelsior College did not meet minimum education requirements for California registered nursing licensure because it lacked sufficient supervised clinical practice." Now that clears it up completely, The BRN evaluated EC as meeting the standard before they determined they didn't. Kind of like my boy John Kerry, the millionaires wife, voting for the funding before he voted against it. Only in Massachusetts and California can this logic fly. Of course, at least the Court got the characterization of the CPNE right, "The CPNE is a weekend course, administered over two and one-half days..." I'm going out on a limb here, Liz, but I'm guessing you never successfully negotiated the CPNE process as traumadude and I have? In case you did, as you know, it's really not a course or just an exam...it's an adventure! And for those of you that are EC grads, are you really surprised that the BRN mischaracterized the CPNE in such an egregious way? Isn't it telling of the Courts' bias when they adopted the same language in the dicta of the brief? Also, do you often wonder, like I do, how many BRN folks as well as non EC grads could actually pull it off, that is passing the CPNE? But hey, it's just a weekend seminar, right? At least the BRN wasn't being arbitrary in its decision to cut off EC grads: "Excelsior College graduates, like other out-of-state graduates,....This eligibility requirement applies to students who enrolled at Excelsior on or after December 6, 2003." I suppose EC started adding something different to the applicant's water supply after December 6, 2003 to make them less of a worthy candidate for RN licensure. If indeed EC grads do pose a threat to consumers of California, it's a good thing the BRN is looking out for folks by letting some EC grads stay licensed, like the 6,000 plus who are working in California. Fortunately for the BRN, and perhaps unfortunately for the school that is in the process of approval, the BRN can change it's position at anytime: "An agency is not bound by its prior statutory interpretation if it determines that prior interpretation was in fact erroneous." You see, I was wrong, the BRN isn't malicious, their just incompetent (excuse me "erroneous") I only hope the faculty of the school in which you speak are all knowledgeable on how to kiss rings. Just tell them it's all in the pucker. I am very happy for your school that they will have an unfair advantage over EC. As fair minded indivduals, I'm sure they are delighted, of course unless the BRN decides to turn on them. The architect of this decision will also be pleased. Your school must be very pleased, especially since they don't have to pay the overhead (because the hospitals who are so short on nurses are picking up the tab), and if it's a state sponsored school, they can really rake in the FTE moneys at what-$250+ dollars per FTE unit?...all ancillary profits. It's good to be on the State's payroll. As far as University of Phoenix, I find it very telling that you would include them in the mix. Perhaps you may want to read some comments posted by some happy students and graduates of UoP at ripoffreport.com/. Just type in "uop" and take note of the 52 pages of kind comments related to UoP. Perhaps the school you speak of is in there, too. You will be happy to know that EC, is listed twice, only for not printing a diploma correctly and its association with the College Netweork, though. Too bad, huh. There's no accounting for good taste and high quality. Anyway Liz, I'm always appreciative to hear the other side of things. If it wasn't for your logic and reasoning, I wouldn't have any reason to scratch my head. Keep up the good work, and as I said before, it takes all kinds.

Where there is total power without any form of accountability, there is always going to be corruption, especially when it comes to any form of California administrative agency. Although the decision by neither the BRN, nor the opinion of the administrative law judge makes Law or Statute, the process that has occurred does make this decision "Law." In short, when someone appeals a decision of an administrative agency, the issue goes before an administrative law judge (ALJ), who has the power to make an opinion based on a set of facts. When the ALJ makes an opinion, it is still ultimately up to the agency (BRN) whether to accept the opinion or not. Should the moving party, in this case Excelsior, be dissatisfied with either the ALJ's opinion, or the agencies decision related to the opinion, the moving party can file an extraordinary writ, or a writ of mandamus (writ of mandate) This is an appellate proceeding within a California Superior or appellate court, and in essence, everything starts from scratch (trial de novo) and the rules of evidence which are limiting within an administrative action provide for an increase in discovery. At any rate, when the superior or court of appeals makes a decision, in the absence of Statute, the decision from the jurist in essence becomes precedent or case Law, unless overturned by a higher court, or addressed by statute down the road. The BRN is completely aware that courts always tend to side with them, because they are charged with public safety and they claim they are the experts on such issues. This is why there is very little, if any defense, to what every an opposing party argues, because who can argue with the notion to always side or error in the favor of public safety? Again, as in this case, corruption always follows where there is absolute power with little, if any accountability. In physiology we learn that certain physiological principles mediate responses in the body. We learn that endorphins are released in response to pleasure or other forms of activities. We often experience this ourselves when we help patients as nurses, as the high of helping others. BRN staffers experiences this when they destroy dreams and create hardships for those who only want to be part of the helping professions when going through a regular brick and mortar school is unrealistic. This is clearly evidenced by the BRN's gleeful response related to the Courts decision related to Excelsior College. Again, who can argue anything contrary to an assertion of doing things in the interest of public safety from any government body? As in any other profession, it takes all kinds. But then again, what do I know, the BRN could be right, just like the world could be flat and that hand washing makes no difference in the spread of disease. As far as picking up trash on the side of the highways, I don't think they would be qualified.

For those of you that have no problem being refered to as a "male nurse", history applauds you. From the Nightingale doctrine that only "women can be true nurses" and that nursing "is an art that comes naturally only to women," (Evans, 2003) to the ban on men in army nursing in the first half of the last century (Army Nurse Corps Historical Documentation, 2003) to the current under representation through overt discriminatory practices that have caused a gross under representation of men in the ranks of nursing (Yang, et al, 2004), to present day when the vast majority feel that the term nurse, when applied to men, indeed needs a clarifier. Who knows, with this way of thinking and acceptance of the term "male nurse" maybe in a hundred years or so, nursing will be represented by 7% men instead of 5-6% as it now stands today, up from 4% in 1966 (Men in American Nursing, 1997). For those of you that support the term "male nurse", you should feel proud, as it is takes courage in today's society to aid in facilitating and perpetuating a gender stereotype. References Evans, J. (2003, November 28). Men nurses: a historical and feminist perspective. Journal of Advanced Nursing, 47, 321-328. Retrieved February 15, 2006, from EBSCOhost database. Men in American Nursing (1997). Retrieved February 14, 2006, from http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/6011/ Office of Medical History, Army Hurse Corps Historical Documentation (2003, January). Proud to serve: The evolution of Male Army Nurse Corps Officers. Retrieved February 16, 2006, Yang, C., Gau, M., Shiau, S., Hu, W., & Shih, F. (2004, March 10). Professional career development for male nurses. Journal of Advanced Nursing, 48, 642-650. Retrieved February 15, 2006, from EBSCOhost database.

I use the same logic, too. I'm not eating Kentucky Fried Chicken, I'm eating KFC. I find that this helps when I'm choking down deep fried pigeon parts.

Check out this website and type in "uop" in the search. http://www.ripoffreport.com/ Good luck Chest

With the CPNE and all of the exams, and books, from Regents College (now Excelsier) and NCLEX-RN, I think it was around $1,300 or maybe $!,400 bones for the whole thing, and I paid for it as I went through the 8 or 9 month ADN ordeal. Now, the BSN completion deal is costing me about $14,000 bones, not including books, and the MSN will be another $15K. What a difference 12 years does to the cost of education:uhoh3: -Chester

Now I'm confused. A Baccalaureate of Science Degree in Nursing is not the same as a baccalaureate degree with a major in nursing? A Master of Science in Nursing does not equal a MSN? Is this correct? How are these different?

They've been pretty busy over the last few months with multiple BRN's & BON's. You might want to try asking for Dean Acree or Dr. Miller. They're usually pretty responsive. Chester

These really help my feet for those 16 hour shifts. http://www.heelsforyou.com/Images/Tonys_Shoes_V13/513.jpg They come in white too. Chester

I don't think ISU has an Adult NP program--only FNP and adult health. You might want to check out Ball State (also in Indiana) Part time, no on campus required, and no thesis required--only optional if you like root canals. I think its $360 per unit at 48 units. Chester