Cardiac Nurses

I am an ICU cardiac nurse.

1. The nurses did not tell you that they didn't expect your grandmother to leave the hospital because they are not gods and cannot predict what an outcome is going to be. I have seen patients with a flat EEG sit up two days later and be perfectly intact mentally. I would never EVER tell someone that their family member has no hope of surviving an event unless I was absolutely certain, and that certainty doesn't come often. In many cases, the physicians adamantly do not want RN's imparting information about the prognosis of the patient to the family - they feel it is their job to do so. In addition, unless you are the POA for your grandmother, it was not your right to have that information from the nurses. That should come from the designated family member who is allowed to have that information.

You also stated that they got her up to walk. If they did that, they must have thought that at some point she'd be strong enough for rehab and to be discharged eventually. That could also be why they wouldn't tell you that she wasn't going to survive. They obviously didn't think that if they were taking her for a walk.

2. The allowing of children in ICU's varies with the location and the situation. My ICU does not allow children as a rule, but we do if the patient could potentially not survive. It was probably not because they didn't expect her to make it, but because they didn't know if she would make it or not and didn't want to deny her what might have been her last contact with them. Or maybe they were just feeling especially lenient that night and allowed the children in even though it was against the rules.

3. If they knew she wasn't getting enough oxygen to her brain prior to her need for intubation, they were incredibly stupid for allowing her to continue to be in a situation where she wasn't getting enough oxygen and should have intubated then or put on a bipap now, not a day later, and they never should have made her get up to walk in that situation.

It sounds like you are getting spotty or bad information, or your grandmother was in a unit filled with incompetence. In my unit, nobody sits for two days with "not enough oxygen to the brain" (also known as a crap ABG) without something being done about it.

3. If they knew she wasn't getting enough oxygen to her brain prior to her need for intubation, they were incredibly stupid for allowing her to continue to be in a situation where she wasn't getting enough oxygen and should have intubated then or put on a bipap now, not a day later, and they never should have made her get up to walk in that situation.

It sounds like you are getting spotty or bad information, or your grandmother was in a unit filled with incompetence. In my unit, nobody sits for two days with "not enough oxygen to the brain" (also known as a crap ABG) without something being done about it.

Not enough information to judge the health care professionals in this situation to determine stupidity or if they had actually given out bad information or what they should or should not have done.

Also, an ABG may not determine how the brain is using the oxygen provided in the blood. Be careful with giving out information that can be misleading or wrong.

There was one full day that she was not getting enough oxygen to her brain because she kept fainting in her bed. She was moved out of ICU, but when she started fainting they put her back in ICU and that next morning they got her up to walk and she collapsed and died.

I am an ICU cardiac nurse.

3. If they knew she wasn't getting enough oxygen to her brain prior to her need for intubation, they were incredibly stupid for allowing her to continue to be in a situation where she wasn't getting enough oxygen and should have intubated then or put on a bipap now, not a day later, and they never should have made her get up to walk in that situation.

That's a pretty bold statement to make considering you have a three short paragraph synopsis of the OPs situation. Its easy to make assumptions about how someone else's care was handled and how you or your unit would have provided care, but to suggest that the care provided was "stupid" or otherwise inadequate based on a short story (by a non health care professional) doesn't really help anybody.

It also may give more information, I don't know if it will or not, but she also had alzheimers.

I am very sorry for your loss.

As JulieCVICU said, no one, nurse, physician, or otherwise, knows for sure whether someone will recover or not. Experience teaches clinicians various s/s and diagnostics which are fairly accurate predictors, but also teaches that there are breathtaking exceptions - patient with stable diagnostic indicators who code in front of your eyes, and patients with extremely poor diagnostics who go home smiling.

I think it's important to remember, too, that we are all human and have a limited life span. No one lives forever.

I would strongly caution you against drawing conclusions about the quality of care your grandmother received when you do not have all the information. A missed detail or two, or lack of understanding about typical care, can greatly alter perception.

Again, my sincerest condolences to you & your family.

There was one full day that she was not getting enough oxygen to her brain because she kept fainting in her bed. She was moved out of ICU, but when she started fainting they put her back in ICU and that next morning they got her up to walk and she collapsed and died.

There are many situations that can cause fainting.

I am uncertain at this point as to how to continue with this without giving out medical and/or legal advice to someone who is not in the medical field and since you presented this as a real patient and family member.

My condolences to your family.

The nurses acually told me that she was not getting enough oxygen to her brain becaue she kept fainting. She was also in moderate (it seemed like it got worse after all this happened) alzheimers. I don't know if alzheimers has anything to do with not getting enough oxygen to her brain.

However the day before she died her alzheimers was bad. I mean really bad, she had been divorced from my grandfather for about 30 years and spoke about him as if they were still married. That is something she never, NEVER would have done in her right mind.

If you don't feel comfortable giving me your thoughts on this situation that is fine. I just wondered from actual nurses what they thought about it.

My father is a RN, but he is to close to the situation to talk about it with me.