Actually I said INTERVENTIONAL pain procedures are not being taught in CRNA school. If you had fluoroscopically guided injection training in CRNA school, pray tell us where so I can contact the school for verification. As for CRNA= 3 years to 8 years of training, that is a fact. The AANA gives the same level of certification to a 2 year certificate RN plus one year CRNA school without masters degrees (which by the way according to the AANA website was not fully implemented until less than 10 years ago so it is difficult to see how you think all these nurses that obtained non-MS degrees are near retirement) as it does to nurses well trained in OR and OB anesthesia with DNP degrees. No other professional certification organization has such a wide lattitude in the meaning of "certified". Nonetheless, even DNP nurses are not trained in the management of chronic pain. If you think a couple of hours of training in non injection chronic pain management qualifies you to treat comprehensive pain management, then heaven help those patients that would naively enter your realm.

Apparently your argument is that any licensed physician is qualified to practice any branch of medicine or surgery. I'll be sure to let my next door neighbor psychiatrist know. If that is not your argument then why make this statement? WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Would an internist believe that he could suddenly become a brain surgeon with a few weekend courses?

Even though their medical licenses allows them to practice medicine and surgery, physicians are not arrogant or stupid enough to believe that they can practice safely outside of their training. If an internist wants to do surgery, what does he do? He goes back and does a residency in surgery.

A CRNA degree certifies the holder that he/she is qualified to deliver anesthesia. Pain is not within the scope of your training. Nobody buys your argument that it does and by their rulings neither do the courts. Weekend courses with cadavers does not mean you're qualified to suddenly perform invasive pain procedures on live patients. Like I said, if you got great evidence or arguments, step up to the plate and convince the courts why you're right and they're wrong.

If you want to do pain, then nursing programs need to include that as part of their training. However, there are some obstacles to that. 1) don't hold your breath that pain docs will happily train CRNA's to do pain. 2) performing invasive procedures like cutting someone open to insert something like a baclofen pump is not within the scope of nursing. Even if CRNA's do pain, it will never be as comprehensive as a pain doc because they can't do really invasive stuff. You basically can just inject.

I just thought that I should give my on the issue. Now I understand where CRNA's feel like they should have a say in pain management, because I believe there is a place in pain management that they could be part of...especially when you are giving pain meds during procedures. That makes total sense!!! I gotcha on that.....What I DON'T understand is where CRNA's feel that they should bring a patient to radiology or the OR/.. make a lumbar cuts into a patients back, placing spinal leads for pain stimulators using C-arm, placing Baclacin Pumps (sp?) into patients etc. etc.....ya'll get my drift all after a weekend course. These are the things that separate pain physicians from anesthetist....the physicians do an extra 2-3 years to learn this stuff. Now I understand what nurseKaren is trying to say, that things are evolving...but they are evolving with the proper education to back it up! Now maybe in the future, it will change but for now, at least the part of pain management that I am refering to should remain in the physicians court. (Now I should also note that I am referring to what pain management does in my state and what they do in the OR that I work in....)

I just felt the need to re=post what was already posted by me because ya'll seem to be going around and around what was already mentioned;)

Dude just "injecting" is what a large argument is about. What do you think most treatments are? Spinal cord stimulator, pain pumps? Yeah they are there but that is not the bread and butter of a pain practice it is just those basic "injections"

According to you they are pretty basic so obviously a highly trained and skilled practitioner such as myself is in a much better position to judge my competency and my peer groups competency over an untrained uncertainly trained individual as yourself, hey all you can do is type.

ASA is a political organization first and foremost meant to protect MDA monopolies.

yeah well JWK if the AA were not such an open play to create a more dependent midlevel to replace the CRNA it would not be an issue. Note more Dependent by law not by ability IMO. I think the AANA should find a way grandfather in AA's so that they to may have independent practice.

A hands-on cadaver course open to all physicians and CRNAs of all skill levels that want to learn pain management from assessments to image guided interventional techniques. Three day course will include both didactic and hands-on including a physical assessment lab and extensive hands-on cadaver training using fluorscopy.

MAY 2-4

Doubletree Chicago-Arlington Heights

19 CEUS pending AANA approval

http://www.napeseminars.com/pages/seminars.html

Exhibit A: typical weekend course

I'm waiting for wtbcrna to post info about accredited and recognized programs that comprehehsively trains CRNA's to do pain that would make them equivalent to pain docs. He seems convinced that such programs exist so I'm waiting for the evidence.

I'm waiting...

....I'm waiting...

You apparently can't admit you are wrong, ng, despite being shown in plain English that the LA SUPREME Ct did NOT as you claim find pain to be strictly a physician function (District Ct, one judge, remember?), so why should anyone here care if you wait and wait till the cows come home.

And your qualifications again?