meta091

I never asserted the fact that someone with more "alphabet soup" was better instantly than someone else, but it does make a difference. Being a nurse is not soley some inborn talent, but rather a combination of skill, hard work, and education. We, as nurses, need to accept this and move forward in order to be respected in the same vein as physicians, lawyers, etc. But this is lost when people say all additional education is used for is more letters after a name and a pay raise. You don't see physicians saying these things. I, for one, am glad LPN's and ADN RN's are being forced out. In order to be respected as a the professionals we need to be - we have to be better educated. You can argue all you want, and say, "oh I'm a better nurse than you cause I have 50 years experience," or that education is only adding letters to your name and nothing more, but the healthcare world disagrees. Go back to school.

Please explain then. You've stated additional education and licensure would not, in any way, make you a better nurse. The equivalent would be for me to say, "No I don't need any additional schooling or licensing because I'm already the best at what I do." That's arrogant and just wrong. If I went to medical school or obtained additional NP certifications - I would be a better nurse and NP. It's flat out irritating to hear nurses say that additional schooling or training wouldn't help.

So you refuse to explain your idiotic and laughable, point that additional education and licensing does not make someone a better critical care nurse. This is hilarious because it's the argument held over and over again by LPN's - that they are just as good as rn's but without a couple research classes. Just laughable.

I remember being right in the same place as you. Especially after hearing fellow classmates are landing great jobs (often times due to already working at the hospital or some relative is a manager). Do you have your ADN or BSN? - Many managers will only hire BSN grads. Espcially if the hospital is magnet or trying to be. It may be hugely beneficial (if you don't have your BSN) to put in your cover letter that you fully intend to get your BSN as soon as you can utilize tuition assistance. Do you already have your state license? - Again, I've had many many many managers tell me they toss out every application without a valid license in hand. Where in the country are you applying? - It is nearly impossible to get a job at one small rural hospital if that's all you're trying for. Branch out and apply to the nearest big city and cast that net wide.

Nursing programs are hugely focused on new concept-based curriculum that teaches critical thinking, decision making, and actions. Sure critical thinking can come naturally to many people, but it is still a teachable concept and practice (or else why would every reputable university adopt this curriculum?) Why is this an argument? Because you want to say education cannot help with this and years of experience and inborn talent are the only factors? Let me understand here. So you're saying a bachelor's degree, or RN license, would not have made you a better critical care nurse. Because you "didn't learn anything useful." So, by your logic, further education and training would have done you no good? You're asserting the idea that all anyone needs to learn in order to be the best nurse (LPN/RN/ADN/BSN/MSN) they can be, is learned in LPN school? So what makes a good nurse to you? Years of experience and that's it?

It all depends. What do you want to do? NP fields are wide and varied; whereas, CRNA roles are pretty set. Do you want to work in surgery from 5am - 4pm every day? There's so many paths with NP that it is an entire conversation in itself. Do you want primary or acute, peds or adult... The point is: if you want crna - go for it.

You are absolutely correct. The sorry fact is the world of LPN's is shifting, and personally I feel sorry for the students at my city's local LPN school that are being lied to about job opportunities in high acuity settings like labor and delivery and ICU.

You got this upset because you thought I called LPN's not nurses? Grow a spine.

What school would ever say this? Critical thinking education is a vital part of any nursing program's curriculum. Sure, you may learn great critical thinking through experience, but still can learn it through school as well.

I've already stated this comment of mine was taken incorrectly. I meant compassion and clinical skills does not make one a "nurse." I did not intend to insult other nurses. This is just desperation. My point was: we can argue about years of experience all you want. Where have you worked? What shift? What hospital? How long? What patients? It's pointless. I've worked "in the trenches" as you say, but I don't wear it as a badge of honor as you do. We are professionals here and should act as such. Stop with your trivial attempts at holding something over another with years of experience. I've never said someone without high levels of education are sub-par nurses. I'm merely saying higher degrees allow for better professionals. I've never said that. I merely said they are being phased out because of the increasing need for higher degrees of education. This is why diploma nurses are phased out. The trend will continue. I've clarified this: saying that my point was clinical skills are not what makes someone a nurse. I never intended to say a LPN or ADN RN is anything less than a nurse. I've never said experience is worthless or not needed. I've again and again only said that higher degrees of education prepare the nurse to perform at the level required of being a healthcare professional. Physical Therapists are being required to get doctorates, Nurse Practitioners are required to have doctorates, RN's are required to have bachelor's. It's just the way things are moving. I don't know why you are so mad.

It's in the same vein as BSN vs ADN RN's. Yes they take the same test and are licensed the same, but more and more are ADN's being required to pursue higher levels of education for that profession. The same is true with NP's. A DNP is quickly being mandated for any NP as well as more specific licensing (Family Practice NP's are being asked to receive acute care specification). You are correct. A Doctorate of Nursing Practice (DNP) is becoming, quickly, the standard level of education for a Nurse Practitioner. Same thing with BSN and RN's. Everything seems to be moving up a notch. And my earlier post was taken wrong. I merely meant to say being compassionate or having good clinical skills does not solely make someone a good nurse. And I stand by my stance that higher levels of education are required for nurses.

I agree. Experience and education are vitally important. I've never stated experience is not needed. Tone down the aggressive, and insulting, tone. Doesn't matter. We can spend all day equating years of experience in different clinical settings compared to different healthcare systems. It does not matter. While I do not have RN after my name any longer - we are still in the same vein of healthcare professionals, and no one should jump to the accusatory "how long have you been a nurse" line of questioning. Yes you can. It's all anyone does in nursing school. Good for you. I mean that in a non-sarcastic way. I feel I'm being villianized here for no reason.

You are making my point clearer. Being a nurse is not about clinical skills. To be an effective Registered Nurse, one needs to have a higher degree of education (with the classes you mention) to match the growing field of healthcare.

I'm not sure what you are arguing here. We both agree experience is important, but I feel we differ on the importance of education requirements. All I'm saying is that I feel RN's should be mandated (and they are in most areas) to have a Bachelor of Science in Nursing degree. I (and healthcare systems) feel this prepares them to perform at a higher level with the advanced degree. If this were not the case, we would still be having diploma nurses. The fact remains that the field of healthcare is progressing fast, and we, as nurses, need to be well educated to keep up with it.

No. The post I was replying to asserted that extra school was pointless because it did not pertain to clinical skills. My point was: clinical skills do not make the nurse. So, we're on the same page. Here's where we disagree. You can argue the science does not help the practice of nursing; whereas, I fully believe it does, and not to mention, most healthcare systems do too (BSN's are required where I work). Having a better understanding of the science, critical thinking, and processes may not overtly be seen as beneficial for a nurse, but it does help in the long run. It does not 'make' you a better nurse/doctor/pharmacist or whatever just to have a higher degree. But it does provide the baseline to become a better professional than those without.