msn10

Simply because MD's (all of them) go to medical school and CRNA's go to nursing school, not just for their undergrad, but the CRNA graduate education is done in a nursing college. The title anesthesiologist is the name given to a medical doctor just like cardiologist or neurologist. Every graduate of a nursing school has a nursing title. You would have to go to a different school to get a different title, like wtbcrna said - AA

The entire point of a DNP is to translate the research, not actually do the research. Some DNP's do, in fact, lead research projects, but the degree was meant to have a deeper understanding of research so the correct evidence can be used in the correct situation. PhD's don't often work in hospitals in a clinical position, so comparing a PhD and a DNP (which is done at nauseam) is not really helpful. A great position for a DNP in a hospital is leading a nursing practice council or EBP and QI council. They should have the expertise to understand how policies should be created, who they will affect, and if the policy change is warranted. A DNP will be using that knowledge even if it is "just a desk job" because they are treating patients and that knowledge should be used no matter what their career path.

I am not a huge fan of theory, but Nightingale was really a rock star. Just wasn't her theories, she was a master statistician and mathematician and she worked her tail off at Crimea. Some of the other ones are not worth their weight in water.

Bedside nurses have gone through quite a bit of training in many places as preceptors. My job before this one was creating preceptor workshops and nurse residency courses and I trained nurses all over the country. It was fantastic. There will be a NP preceptor course created probably in the next year as grant funding is coming through. The CCNE has accredited many BSN programs, I think the NP one will follow the same teaching methods which is all based on adult learning principles. You are right, however, having a trained preceptor makes a big difference.

NP schools are a lot more than you are giving them credit for. There are variances in school quality, but your sweeping statements are factless. I have seen a lot more physicians in favor of NP's than the opposite and if NP's were killing people at alarming rates, we would hear about it. It makes me nervous when I read posts from medical students who have such disrespect for a discipline they will have to work so closely with. If you like medicine better, great, go like medicine, but many physicians also really like working with NP's and value their input and expertise.

Because my work and research in conflict management tells me otherwise. Are there people that do both? Sure. However, many people who do not like to speak up at work do so on these threads. If students get together and really start to demand a "better product" people in licensing boards do listen. I have witnessed it first hand. I COMPLETELY changed a class I had, and by extension, we absolutely transformed our undergraduate program to include one more nursing course and take out an elective to give students another clinical and then added 2 more electives for nurses that they were asking for and put new threads throughout the entire curriculum, added more experiential learning, provided a week-long boot camp for NCLEX (not including all the other preps we have for it) and have brought in some unbelievable new professors. I know I am in a bit of a Utopia, we have 125+ nursing students per grade and we get approx. 2000 applicants per year. I know things can change, but when people only complain on forums, it doesn't' help. I just wonder how many students go to AANP conferences or write letters to them (as a collective group which carries more weight) to demand higher standards? They do listen, but they have to hear from the right people.

I was just having a discussion today about the NP curriculum. This thread had me interested in asking. The NP's that I work and teach with said they would favor another pharm, but more of a pharm class that had to do specifically with interactions with other drugs and an element of genomics which will become very big very fast as we have already witnessed point of care decision making, EHR's and genomics explode in the last 3-5 years with programs like SMART. What I don't want to get away from completely is the nursing model. Partnering with physician groups and pharmacists is great, but remember, they see it from a very medical point of view. Them "overseeing us" would be a nightmare. What did come up in our discussion today (and remember these are college professors who still work as NP's because we have to and want to) is the fact that when we have a PA vs NP shadow us in the clinic or watch us at the bedside, the focus is different. Very often you will see the nurse understand the nuances with patients - patient is saying one thing, but there is an underlying issue that is a bigger problem. PA's don't seem to have the same 6th sense with regards to holistic perspective, and that is okay, they are trained differently. With regards to Jules and Dodongo, it sounds as if you may like the medical model better and that's okay. Dodongo you still have time to switch to a PA if you want to. I think all 3 programs PA/NP/MD need to reevaluate every year and make changes to their programs. There are some pretty crappy programs in all three fields. Remember, there are many physicians who go to medical in other countries. Some of those programs scare me to death. I am fine with the amount of schooling I have because my ICU and cardiac experience in nursing was very intense and I worked at a Level I center which is obviously a teaching facility and the staff MD's and RN's did a great job "training" us as well. I don't know that another pharm would have helped. But when you get out of school, just like after your BSN, you continue to find learning opportunities in your area.

I don't want to speak for FNP, but from my point of view, I will talk about my experience in both academia and in practice. There are a number of people on Allnurses in general who use their own lived experience and use that to make broad general statements about nursing practice or education, and instead of coming up with pro-active solutions, they just complain. Many of us who have pursued any education beyond a BSN are happy that we did and understand the value of our education. When someone says "I simply feel that there is not a single NP program out there that adequately prepares students with their minimum requirements" I have to question their perspective. Has this person really looked into and knows the outcomes of every NP program? I don't even know that information and I teach graduate students.

There are nursing programs that learn right along physicians as well, but neither is the same. CIM Good Doctors and Nurses - Johns Hopkins Center for Innovative Medicine Again, you are giving a lot of opinions, and I don't know if you are a med student or PA, but unless you are doing any program NP/PA/MD you don't have the background to make all these claims. You are so worried about amount of time in school, yet are you looking at the outcome of both? Is there any difference? Pretty much every study says no difference in outcomes.

I totally agree with you there. Nobody, Imho, should be allowed into an NP without experience, but PA's graduate without experience too. Be careful what you wish for. We can change internally, the AMA is not all it is cracked up to be either. My husband is a physician, I watched him go through medical school and residency. It is amazing how many times the residents are left alone and a lot of the learning happens by themselves. I think nursing is making strides everyday, but I am one of the people who is trying to make it better. You sound like you care a great deal about nursing education, which is great. But I say this very respectfully, complaining about it on this thread or any other won't change anything. I teach .5 and work directing a program .5 and every single one of my clinical instructors are NP's. We pay the hospital to give them a day off to teach on the floor. It is amazing, the NP's who are familiar with the hospital or clinic, who also have great expertise in clinical practice are giving back. This is where the real learning begins. If you want to make a change, offer your services (paid, of course) to a university and teach! You can also offer your expertise to the AANP or ANCC. Get a group of NP's together to ask for tougher standards, they listen to NP's very often in online or open forums. With all the passion you have, it would be wonderful to put it to good use.

Get over myself? I have a responsibility to make sure my students don't kill anyone. You are missing the point. It is not about credit, it is about understanding simple algebra which I am sure you learned even if it was 20 years ago. It is not my responsibility to teach it to you again. You learned how to read in school, but I am not about to teach you how to do that if you don't remember either. Starting college, you should have a basic set of skills. I am not at all trying to sound snarky, but in the last few years that I have been teaching Foundations, not one student thought the testing was out of line. They didn't love the 'no calculator' rule, but since I worked in an ER and ICU, I know you must be able to do math in your head. The majority of schools I know do this. There is a lot of math in nursing, but we can't possibly test you on everything you need to know. As an adult learner, you will need to learn things on your own. Besides, if you are not passing the test, then why would you want credit for it?

I require my students to do this "without credit" and without a calculator. If they cannot do simple algebra, then they should not be in the nursing program. I have 2 children in college, I hope for their sake they are not emailing their professors the way you did.

If that is your main source of research, then that is a significant problem. And this thread is about DNP's, all of which have extensive education in research. Unlike a PhD they do not carry out a dissertation, but they take many of the same classes which include translational research, advanced stats, etc., and understand the IRB process. DNP's lead year-long projects. I know what research option our PA's have available to them, and if they choose to do research, they have to have a PI lead the project. You must not have read the following posts: https://allnurses.com/doctor-nursing-practice/dnp-students-projects-1076180.html https://allnurses.com/research-nursing/are-any-of-934361.html https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/need-help-with-376492.html I didn't say we grant graduate level credit, I am saying that the knowledge they gain in undergraduate is becomes part of the graduate experience. If an RN took pharm in his or her undergrad, which they all do, then they go onto advanced pharm classes later on. Not sure how that is getting lost in translation. Every program requires prerequisites, just the like PA program does. Please don't put PA's on the same level as MD's - no comparison. In order to prescribe effectively, you need to have a great deal of knowledge and hopefully experience with medications. A new NP with RN experience runs circles around a new PA. Years of administering and looking up medications in the RN role is very valuable when understanding how to prescribe. I can see how an NP getting prescribing authority would be concerning for some as an NP can be an independent practitioner as a PA still needs supervision so they have that to fall back on. In fact, happened to my mom, the PA in the ER prescribed the wrong medication and the doctor reviewed the chart called 3 hours later to change it. A research class is very different from a capstone project, especially the one-semster, one-credit capstone project. Look, I get it, you don't like NP programs, but then don't be an NP. My university has so many health oriented programs, probably the most in the nation, and our CRNA program is affiliated with the medical college. We all work together and have a lot of classes together. Even many of the PA's will tell me that they wished they had some of the hospital experience the NP's have because experience means so much more than anyone on this thread is considering. I am fine with my education, but like any other nursing professor who sits on the curriculum committee, I constantly strive to do make the programs I teach in better for everyone. All I see you doing is taking the biggest problems in the NP programs and comparing them to the highest accolades in the PA program. I work very well with PA's except for the arrogant ones who think they are independent practitioners and are better than the NP's.

Do you have a preceptor program for NPs? I know they are starting a couple in community and rural areas.

Again, biochem and physiology is given in undergrad but has no bearing on scholarly work. You have made it sound on more than one thread that you have quite the disdain for nursing education, but since you are not a nurse, I am not sure where you are getting your information from. A few people's lived experience is different than a profession that has proven outcomes.

First of all, thank you so much for being a preceptor! It is one of the most vital components to a new graduate's success. As for you comment about being scholarly, I completely agree with you. I work with nurse scientists who bring such knowledge and experience to the field of nursing it is a pleasure to work with them. But CrunchRN is right to a certain point too. ADN's can be scholarly by elevating their own knowledge, but a true scholar, as you know is someone with a PhD.

You think a NP should have more than 2 semesters? You don't prescribe nearly as many meds as a physician does and again, pharm should be in every clinical course an NP has. We have threads in our program, pharm is threaded throughout.

It seems everyone here is so focused on pharm courses. A physician usually only has one year of pharm. Why don't they have more? Because like nurses, they get pharm experience in every clinical they do. Pharmacology is just a starting point. I think everyone on here is having a different argument. You cannot compare a BPA with a DNP. Requirements are not the same as options. Anyone has the option to take anything. If you want more pharm, by all means take more if that is what you think makes someone a great practitioner.

You design your capstone based on the specialty you want to pursue. Many are very clinical in nature. Ones my friends or colleagues have been a part of (I am not a capstone advisor): Provider Adherence to Evidence-Based Asthma Guidelines in a Community Health Center Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation Decisions in Nursing Home Residents Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome: A Management Algorithm for Primary Care Providers Measuring Endoscopic Performance for Colorectal Cancer Prevention Quality Improvement in a Gastroenterology Practice etc.

You are right, but neither is a PA. A PhD is a research degree. A DNP is a clinical practice degree.

Way out of line. Every single MSN and NP knows what an IRB is and so do the majority of BSN's. That is a ridiculous statement. Of course you can, That is your weakest argument. Notwithstanding the fact that you just destroyed your own stance because then you can't count PA intro pharm courses either. A RN gives meds all the time in the hospital. I teach nurses at the BSN and graduate level. What they learn in undergrad is completely relevant to their graduate studies. Experience beats classroom or lab learning, they take everything they learn in school and apply it to the hospital. Just ask any adult learning theorist. All things being equal, I will say I would want a new NP to prescribe my meds over a new PA because it is quite likely the NP has been giving meds for years before they started prescribing. Any CRNA DNP program, and many with an acute care focus, and if you read my post I said my was completed in undergrad which is a requirement in any BSN that I know of. In one breath you say that undergrad should not count but then say that the PA program has it when many PA programs are Bachelor's degrees. You can't have it both ways. And does biochem make you a better PA? There is a lot of other classes that I would think would be more valuable. Mine does, but I am not putting it up here. My colleague went here and they required one before you got into the program and one during, US Army Graduate Program in Anesthesia Nursing | Nurse Anesthesia Programs | Army Nursing Program Anyone can. But capstones are not required in PA programs. If you know of one that has one, great. It is too bad so many went to such bad programs. Like I said before, it is a buyer beware issue, but that is the same for any school. Just because something is "required" it doesn't mean it is challenging.

Well good luck. I was there during teaching during the Ministry phase and I really liked it up there.

How is that place doing now? It has had a rough couple of years with all the transitions.

CraigB-RN Don't take my word for it, there was a nice presentation done at Columbia by a PA who got a PhD. This PA talks about the lack of PA research and the lack of translating research into practice by PA"s "emphasis of PA training and practice has always been on clinical care " http://www.columbia.edu/~cjd11/charles_dimaggio/DIRE/resources/Misc/paResearchBeamer.pdf

Nicely done BostonFNP