MN BigJ

Statistics can be swayed, remember, 4 out of 5 dentists choose Crest yet 4 out 5 also choose Colgate. There are no countries with populations as high as the US that cover as big of an area that have a successful socialistic system or a univeral payer. Basically the same will happen that happens with the education system. Unequal distribution of funds and services= more problems. Maybe, just maybe, if our government could fix the medicare problems and fix the VA system, and I don't mean just saving money but actually having good hospitals within reach for all the Vets, then I'll be for it.

Perhaps those of you drinking the Socialism Obama Kool Aid are the ones brainwashed. Life isn't black and white, sometimes you have to use logic and facts and make the best decision. Everytime someone presents another point of view to the people pushing one of Obama's agendas they are called unimformed or even stupid by those who believe. Present a reason, a logical and factual reason (not "healthcare is a right"), that a healthplan that will cost over a trillion dollars, raise taxes, result in people dropping private insurance to join more government plans, and result in the closing of businesses, even hospitals eventually makes sense? The proposed plan only covers 17 million of the 30-50 million they estimate are uninsured and many of those people still will not seek preventative care offered because they have no real incentive to. The government can't efficiently run Medicare/aid, the VA system, or even a Cash for Clunkers program without major problems and now people think they should run healthcare?

Sure the Seniors love Medicare, they go to the doctor or ER or whatever and the only thing they have to complain about is medicare not paying for some medications. However, Medicare is a money loser, it under pays providers in general, and if this disaster of a bill gets passed, they plan on paying for it by taking a portion of the medicare funding and slowing and lowering reimbursement. The cost of the program and how they plan on paying for it concerns me. The sense of entitlement that is growing in this country concerns me. The effect of less money being paid to providers and hospitals concerns me, as hospitals go broke they will start by laying off staff and then closing the doors no matter what the effect on patient care is so don't fool yourself. The only way to eliminate the last bit is by having government bailout of hospitals in the future. Is that really what we want?

So with Obamacare, if you get hurt the government will pay your bills too?? I didn't see that in the bill.

I think if a person is to be making claims accusing someone of something they should have cold hard facts and actual cases. The OP's post is full of nonfactual statements and crazy accusations, I think if you are going to make the accusations give some examples. Bush caused racism?? ALL the facts about the Gates case were wrong and the rest were assumptions more than facts. Just show a case were someone was discriminated against for health care because of race. Tie it to the rest of the craziness in the first post using facts and I would be very impressed.

Um, Pt Care Asst, Even the White House Budget office says this plan will not be cost effective. The current plan in the House will only cover about 17 million additional people leaving an additional 17 to 30 million (depending on who's numbers you beleive, I believe the US census over Obama at about 31-35 million total without). Taxing businesses that offer health benifits and fining those who don't to pay for this will drive many businesses to just pay the fine leaving many of us to sign up for the government plan. A plan based on Medicare and the VA system, both of which are constantly way over budget. The plan of less reimbursemnet and slower payments to healthcare facilities will result in less facilities to offer care once they start to go broke, then sure everyone will have health care insurance but there will be fewer places to get care. Currently there are programs out there like Medicaid and some State programs that people could be on but many just don't apply or figure someone will take care of them anyway, a government health plan will not stop this sense of entitlement, it will only make it worse.

Yes 17 million. The bill currently being worked on in the House will cover an addtional 17 million people. Even though the US Census estimates between 30 and 35 million Americans without insurance and Obama keeps pushing the number as close to 50 million only an addtional 17 million will be covered. That's a lot of people that are not going to be covered. As far as recieving more $$, if they are paying less money per person, and more and more people are on the Government plan because of payer issues that will equal less money for the hospitals. If less employers offer health insurance because it is cheaper to pay the fine placed on them or if we get taxed on health benefits less people will be on private insurance which pays an average of 85% of the bill an will be on the government plan which pays an average of 50-60% of the bill. That's a lot of money. Especially when it's an estimated addtional 75-100 million people that will be off of private insurance and be on the government program. Some of the great leaders in Washington(sense the sarcasm), when asked what about the additional people that need to be covered, said "that's what other programs are for." refering to Medicaid and some of the State funded programs. Either way, no everyone will be covered and it will cause a decrease in funds to hospitals and clinics, causing them to close or reduce workforce, resulting in nursing lay offs. As those of us in MN have learned, a nursing shortage means nothing if they don't have the money to pay the nurses they have. Meaning Lay offs.

First, overall the VA system is a joke and so is Medicare. Just talk to some vets and see what they have to say, especially the ones just coming back from duty that need services. Sure there are some good hospitals in the system but one good hospital every 500 miles is far from adequate healthcare. Medicare reimbursement is horrible, and this new plan wants to cut reimbursement more and slow payments. How long can hospitals and clinics remain open if they are paid less and less often? I do agree the system has some broken parts, but is turning the whole thing upside down over the 17 million more people it would cover really worth it? I could go on and on but my point is, yes it would be great for everyone to have insurance but do you really trust our government to figure out the best solution when they have yet to get Medicare/medicaid to work without losing billions and the VA system can't handle it's pt's?

50ml in 5 minutes?? sure but what is the drug or atleast what is it supposed to do?

And exactly what is wrong with making a profit?? If your goods or services are superior to others and people are willing to pay why is it so evil to make money? Now if you are taking money and not actually giving a product or service and pocketing the dough, then you are a swindler. I just do see something bad with making money though.

That sounds fine and dandy, but it still isn't going to get people to start taking care of themselves. I say we need regulations on the people receiving the paid for healthcare. I say if you want the government to pay for your health care you have to follow up a primary care physician atleast yearly. You need to be taking your medications and taking care of yourself. Chronic conditions are the biggest cost in the system and if people take care of themselves the cost will go down. If people don't feel there is a reason to care for themselves because someone else is picking up the tab it seems to me costs will go out of control.

As I have said many times, health care is an issue and a big one at that. I just don't think that getting the government more involved in everyone's health care is the answer. The problem will continue to be that people always have a sense of entitlement. Once you start to give a little to people, they want more until soon they want it all. Maybe if we figured out the reasons for the massive increase in costs in health care and some how fix that then it would not be so expensive. Getting the government involved with result in a less than ok system for everyone. With that will be the formation of private system once again and then to get good healthcare you will still have to pay for it while you are already paying for everyone elses. Many countries with some sort of UHC also have private payer as well and the private hospitals are better. You are right in the fact that healthcare is a need. I just think there are better ways than a complete takeover by the government.

By the way, why is it that people keep saying how horrible insurance companies are and that they shouldn't be involved in our lives so much, yet are pushing for more government control in our lives. As I said earlier, a government that is large enough to give you everything, is powerful enough to take it all away.

My whole point is: why should the government pay for it?? or better yet, Why should the government stop at healthcare? I deserve it all, and for it all to be paid for with someone elses tax dollars.

That is true, medicare reimbursments are not that great, especially when you consider the regulations they place on hospitals without placing regulations on the people it is paying for.