4n608

The only other thing I can think of, allison, is to keep trying. You say you are a paramedic interested in both flight and forensic nursing, why not combine the two? You could be a flight nurse whose focus specialty is in knowing how to preserve evidence on scenes. You've taken courses in forensics, how do you apply what you have learned as a paramedic? Learn how how apply the teaching you've had. And then keep going. I emphasize becoming involved in your state IAFN chapter. Networking can provide you with opportunities you may not get otherwise. And about the ME's office, I said what I did because I had to cram my 40 hrs of clinical time with them into one week - regardless of my work and school schedule. We were not allowed to go beyond the one week, because - as it was explained to us, there many others who also need to get their time in. And only a limited number of people wer allowed at autopsy, including any law enforcement personnel who needed to be present. There is such a thing as the CSI effect, and where there may have been plenty of opportunity before to intern in this type of field; since CSI, there has been a flood of interest and enrollment in various CSI type fields. That's why opportunities don't exist like they used to. One other thing, I don't often post on bulletin boards. But just so you know, I have been in healthcare since the 1980's. I noticed in the early 1990's that there was a huge gap between the medical and legal systems. And so I started to educate myself. I have now been in school for ten years learning about criminal justice, forensics, CSI (the real thing), and forensic nursing. I work as an emergency room nurse and also as a forensic nurse. I have had directors of EDs (plural) who haev come to me and asked me to write policy and to educate other nurses on how to collect evidence, without compromising patient care. I have come in, after being called in via pager, to collect evidence, with police waiting for me, and with the media outside. I have been deposed and have been in court. My teachers and mentors are those who write textbooks in forensic nursing, direct crime labs, are medical examiners, are prosecutors, and who function as expert witnesses. I have been extremely fortunate to have them as teachers and mentors. And if I share something with someone, even a post on a bulletin board, it does not originate with me, but with my teachers and mentors. I thought you should know. Again, best of luck - and don't get discouraged. Be patient and be persistent.

[i would like to be able to shadow a forensic nurse and see what they do exactly, but i cant get ANY medical examiner's office in this state to call me back!] Hi allison, I know of only a few people in a few states who have managed to get to view an autopsy. It really depends on the state and on the circumstances. I am an in an MSN Forensic Nurse Clinical Specialist program. The university has contracts with all the agencies we do clinicals with, including the Medical Examiner's office. One of my required courses is a Forensic Pathology class, taught by the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner for the state. As part of the clinical time I have observed a number of autopsies, as well as gone out with the Death Investigators to death scenes (not always, nor even most of the time, crime scenes). This is part of the 180 clinical hrs we do with various agencies per semester (240 hrs next semester, my last). Seeing an autopsy gives an appreciation for what force can do to the body, as well as a better understanding of natural disease processes. The pathophysiology becomes real, instead of reading about it in a book or even seeing signs and symptoms of trauma or disease in a patient. But do you need to see an autopsy to decide whether to become a forensic nurse? Absolutely not! Your best bet is just to focus on finishing nursing school, research forensic nursing and all its sub-specialties. If you are interested in death investigation, research what the systems and processes are in your state. Is it a coroner based system or a Medical Examiner System? Or a combination? Who does death investigation in your state? What role does law enforcement play? Look into whether your state has a chapter in the International Association of Forensic Nurses (IAFN), if it does - place membership in IAFN and then in your chapter and get involved. Find out who is doing what in your chapter, perhaps they might be able to get you on the inside track. Sometimes the circumstances can be changed by networking and who you know in this field. If you can, take a forensic pathology course (you usually need a pathophysiology course as a pre-requisite) or a pathology course and see if you can get to see an autopsy that way. Just understand that forensic nursing is not necessarily equal to seeing an autopsy, many forensic nurses have never seen an autopsy. Once you're a nurse, and if you're still interested, look into a formal forensic nursing program where you actually get to do clinical time, preferably one in a university that has contracts with various agencies. It's very, very difficult to get into an agency, including ME, on your own. Best of luck to you.

A 4n6nurse gave you an excellent reply. What I would add to it is that rather than trying to make what you do for a career fit your education, why don't you sit down with a career counselor at the college and find out what exactly it is that you want to do. Then get the eduation and credentials to do that. I started out as a double major in forensic science and chemistry. In the easiest semester there was, I had General Physics, General Chemistry, Calculus I, and English Literature. In real forensic science, you become a scientist where you work in a lab running tests - it's not crime scene work, you don't work for the Medical Examiner or with death investigators, and it's not nursing. Although I did well grade-wise, I learned that I was not a lab person. After talking with a number of people and researching what I wanted to do (saw the gap between medical and legal and learned that I wanted to bridge the gap in clinical forensic nursing in the ED), I spent seven years (part-time) earning a degree in Criminal Justice - Investigative Services. During that same time period I also went all the way through nursing school, and spent two years just learning how to be a nurse before trying to specialize. Today I am one year short (out of three) of my MSN as a Clinicial Forensic Nurse Specialist, I work as a nurse in an ED and yes, I do a clinical forensic nursing role within my ED role. It's taken me years to get to this point, but I am doing it. And I had a plan. Just so you know, collecting physical evidence at crime scenes is the role of law enforcement, not of forensic scientists, or nursing. Processing the body at death scenes is the role of the Medical Examiner's (ME's) office - the death investigators are the eyes and ears of the ME at the death scene. The roles of the Forensic nurse are many and varied, and include SANE and being a death investigator (doing one role doesn't necesarily you also do the other, I recently did the coursework and clinical time to become a SANE in the ED). Death Investigation is very popular - and extremely competitive right now - as everyone has been bitten by the CSI bug and wants to do that role. Two-thirds of my MSN class wants to do that role. Right now, the supply outweighs the demand in that job market (due to the CSI effect). As a4n6nurse pointed out - you have to have a license to do any kind of nursing. I am not sure why a Forensic Nursing certificate would be awarded to someone not in nursing, but you can get into trouble if you give the impression of being a nurse when you are not. Bottom line - know what you want and get a plan before you spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours studying something you might not want to do if you knew what it really was. Hope this helps. 4n608

I don't usually have time to browse through a bulletin board, but did so on a rare weekend with no schoolwork, and it's a weekend off from work. I came across this post and thought I would add something. I graduated from Three Rivers in 2003 (took A&P there as well) as a non-tradional (older) student. Finished a BS in 2006, though not in nursing. Am finished with 2 out of 3 years in an MSN program (I was allowed to begin classwork prior to finishing the BS, though did not matriculate until I finished the BS). I work night shift in an ER. My two cents: most posting here are pre-nursing, so I've noticed. But life as a nurse is always about learning. When I was pre-nursing, I had goals, and now, years later, I am starting to actually reach them. So keep the enthusiasm, and always just go for it. 4n608

Welcome Gigglesforall. Your membership to IAFN will get you the Journal of Forensic Nursing. It is a research based and peer reviewed journal, good for knowing where research in forensic nursing is actually being done. Keep those issues for grad school, you'll find them useful for your own studies. Virginia Lynch's book is excellent for a broad overview that's up to date. Another to consider is "Forensic Nursing - A Handbook for Practice (Copy right 2006, by Jones & Bartlett Publishers, Inc)." This is the textbook I use where I am a graduate forensic nursing student. Authors are Rita Hammer, Barbara Moynihan, and Elaine Pagliaro. Also, if you have access to professional search engines, there's a lot to be found on-line in the various profesional journals. The Journal of Psychsocial Nursing, Critical Care Nursing Quarterly, Emergency Medicine Clinics of North America, and many others are where I have found good information. You just need access to a good search engine and time to do the research. Some of the information is outdated, some of it not. But it's good to do the research just to see what's out there. You might want to contact the grad school you are thinking of and talk to someone in the forensic nursing dept about what they are using. Where I go to school (Quinnipiac University) we also use "The Medical Record as a Forensic Resouce", by Campion Quinn (2005, Jones & Bartlett Publishers, Inc) and a Criminal Law textbook. One thing to be aware of: This is my fourth semester out of six, and I am only just now doing all forensic nursing lecture and clinical. I also had to take (and buy textbooks for) courses in nursing theories, nursing issues, research and statistics, pathophysiology, health assessment, as well as others. I also found I had to print out many, many assigned readings only available through the internet. Lots of paper and ink expenses. It's best to know about something like that so you can financially expect it. Good luck, and if you haven't already joined your state chapter, that's also an additional resource for you. Hope this helps. 4n608