Work While In School?

Another theory instructor? The US needs another theory instructor just like it needs another illegal immigrant running from Mexico to Texas.

Good analogy. :lol2:Where is the nurse instructor shortage? In the clinical portion? I know there is a shortage, just not sure in what capacity.

Good analogy. :lol2:Where is the nurse instructor shortage? In the clinical portion? I know there is a shortage, just not sure in what capacity.

Ill tell you where the shortage is. Its all nursing instructors. Take a Phd os DNA prepared dean or department head. On average they make 80k or so. They have the 4 yr BSN, the what ever year MSN and then at least another 3 or so Phd or DNS. These people have 10yrs of school total and make the 80k. This is a problem when a ADN can go travel and make 80k his first year out of school. When thinking about just your regular masters prepared instructors some clinical instructos some not they make way less maybe 50k, a salary any staff nurse can make whether ADN/BSN or whatever. Shoot a traveling LVN may make 50k. So thats the big issue. Unless you just totally love to teach, no big incentive exists for anyone to even consider education in nursing programs.

And to whoever said we dont need more phd prepared instructors then that very attitude is the route of these problems in nursing. Settle for less, being content with crapy pay, crapy jobs, crapy work. The only way for nursing to be a more credible profession is to have a large percentage of the work force masters prepared at least, to have people doing clinical research, to have teachers that know how to teach and get points across rather than outlining the very chapter you could have read and shortening it up so much just to fit it on power point that you cant even get the big picture b/c it is gutted so much.

As you can see I am not a fan of power point. Im sorry you cant give good info on for example epidurals using 5 mesely powerpoint slides. Powerpoint is a waste of paper, a lazy way out to distibute notes, is damaging eyes if the stupid instructor puts 6 slides per page, is allowing causing profs to merely read off of a slide rather than actually freaking teach, causes the profs to distribute weak and incomplete notes on a topic therefore making the student have to go out and search for the rest of the info so they can have a complete understanding of the topic.

Im all for using powerpoint to do a lecture but if its that skimpy than profs need to include a word document with a more detail complete over view of the topic.

Sorry Had to go off. Taking this studip research class and the prof has done a horrible job and cant make heads or freaking tails out of his notes.

Interesting discussion

Maybe im miscommunication what my intent is. Let me lay it out so its straight forward. Again not a personal attack just straight up opinion.

- The standard for a profession is a degree from a university, not an associates. It is of no matter that most RNs are ADNs, the program should go away as it did in Canada for the benefit of the profession.

- When i said the ADN was a big Rat Race what i meant was that it is FAR too much crammed into far too little time. My nursing was 4 solid years (and all summer each year). I did over twice as much clinical as the local ADN programs (and near 3x the BSNs) and was able to specialize in Critical care and Emergency. Ive never heard of such things locally. If thats the case everywhere, then yes its inferior.

- Of course there are excellent ADNs, experience is the great teacher. However, this isnt the standard for professions, a degree is. Even if the degree seems to be focused on management tracks.

University is so much more than the classes you take, its the culture of intellectualism avaliable which opens doors in thinking. This is lacking in both the ADN programs and community colleges in general. Please, dont waste your time arguing with me about it if you havent seen both sides cause "you dont know what you dont know". Ive been both places. CC for Medic and Univ. for nsg degree.

- Locally, the degree programs are weak. They spend whole classes on nursing theory and nursing dx. Basically, absolute bullshit which you complain about all the way through the class and forget the day after you graduate. In order to strengthen the profession i feel nurses need to move closer to the medical model in regards to hard science education. Less fluff, more professionalism is whats needed to gain respect and recognition.

- I agree with a previous poster that we really should be heading toward MSN prepared RNs as the standard anyway. even OT and PT has done that, nsg is the hold out. The excuse is always the same, "hospitals need RNs we cant institute a nation wide BSN (let alone MSN) standard or the nsg shortgae will get worse. Its exactly that sortof BS that holds back nursing and nurses in general. Its going to get worse regardless of the profession. Nursing, as a rule, alienates 50% orso of he workforce with its current PR and education, MEN. Head more toward science, the medical model and higher standards and that will change. Until then 90% of the public sees nurses as diploma women (or gay men) ass wipers who will do more for less because they care. No surprise, nursing does nothing to change that opinion either in its actions or education.

In order to understand the problem you have to think outside yourself and your own ego. Sure, making BSN a min entry would be hard, HOWEVER canada did it and somehow they manage. Go figure.

As for me becomming a masters prepared instructor for nursing, i have absolutely no interest. They dont pay, there is no respect and the establishment isnt willing to change. Nursing still manages to fall back on the crutch of "Nurses Care". How nice is that, sadly it absolutely denegrates the profession within the realm of medicine (read: science) driven health care.

Locally, the degree programs are weak. They spend whole classes on nursing theory and nursing dx. Basically, absolute bullshit which you complain about all the way through the class and forget the day after you graduate. In order to strengthen the profession i feel nurses need to move closer to the medical model in regards to hard science education. Less fluff, more professionalism is whats needed to gain respect and recognition.

rn29306 buys a round for Mike at the pub near the LZ for that one.

Just a hint folks - when applying to anesthesia school, find out if the school awards a MS or MSN and EXACTLY what the master's project is. Find out if this project is theory based or is actually rooted in something that is real-world based.

THEN make your decision.

Looks down and realizes it's a long way to the bottom of this soapbox.

Apologies everyone.

Interesting discussion

- The standard for a profession is a degree from a university, not an associates. It is of no matter that most RNs are ADNs, the program should go away as it did in Canada for the benefit of the profession.

- Of course there are excellent ADNs, experience is the great teacher. However, this isnt the standard for professions, a degree is. Even if the degree seems to be focused on management tracks.

Well...I guess I can go back to a statement you made earlier... You can send anyone in to take the NCLEX and, properly "prepped", may be able to pass. Well, wouldn't the same be true for getting a degree, as the "standard for a profession"? Anyone who can float through coursework and tests can obtain a degree. They can even fumble their way through clinicals most of the time without much effort. However, a GOOD nurse (i.e. one who actually cares) is going to be the one who, ADN or BSN, takes the time for the patient. I have seen plenty of people who would have, and eventually did, make wonderful nurses. But they had problem with taking tests or studying habits, etc. I don't believe that a degree makes the nurse.

I'm not sure what your experience is with nursing schools here, but not all programs are the same.

As far as a online BSN being clinically irrelevant...maybe so. Since the additional classes deal with community health, management, leadership. But it is a means for entering graduate school, and a hoop to jump through.

Most rn to bsn programs are aimed at ADULT LEARNERS whom already have tons of clinical experience and anything they would provide would be redundant and not useful or pertinent to these particular students.

Interesting discussion

- The standard for a profession is a degree from a university, not an associates. It is of no matter that most RNs are ADNs, the program should go away as it did in Canada for the benefit of the profession.

In order to understand the problem you have to think outside yourself and your own ego. Sure, making BSN a min entry would be hard, HOWEVER canada did it and somehow they manage. Go figure.

Mike, I think you are forgetting about the difference of accessibility to education. We don't have subsidized education here. A lot of those that choose ADN do so because they cannot afford to attend a BSN program. That being said, I do wish there was more standardization between all programs, but it just isn't that way.

Ill tell you where the shortage is. Its all nursing instructors. Take a Phd os DNA prepared dean or department head. On average they make 80k or so. They have the 4 yr BSN, the what ever year MSN and then at least another 3 or so Phd or DNS. These people have 10yrs of school total and make the 80k. This is a problem when a ADN can go travel and make 80k his first year out of school. When thinking about just your regular masters prepared instructors some clinical instructos some not they make way less maybe 50k, a salary any staff nurse can make whether ADN/BSN or whatever. Shoot a traveling LVN may make 50k. So thats the big issue. Unless you just totally love to teach, no big incentive exists for anyone to even consider education in nursing programs.

And to whoever said we dont need more phd prepared instructors then that very attitude is the route of these problems in nursing. Settle for less, being content with crapy pay, crapy jobs, crapy work. The only way for nursing to be a more credible profession is to have a large percentage of the work force masters prepared at least, to have people doing clinical research, to have teachers that know how to teach and get points across rather than outlining the very chapter you could have read and shortening it up so much just to fit it on power point that you cant even get the big picture b/c it is gutted so much.

As you can see I am not a fan of power point. Im sorry you cant give good info on for example epidurals using 5 mesely powerpoint slides. Powerpoint is a waste of paper, a lazy way out to distibute notes, is damaging eyes if the stupid instructor puts 6 slides per page, is allowing causing profs to merely read off of a slide rather than actually freaking teach, causes the profs to distribute weak and incomplete notes on a topic therefore making the student have to go out and search for the rest of the info so they can have a complete understanding of the topic.

Im all for using powerpoint to do a lecture but if its that skimpy than profs need to include a word document with a more detail complete over view of the topic.

Sorry Had to go off. Taking this studip research class and the prof has done a horrible job and cant make heads or freaking tails out of his notes.

LoL!!! LMAO, :rotfl:Nitecap your posts are usually well organized and really good, but damn brother you got schizo on that one. Loved it though. I know exactly what you mean about all the topics you touched on and agree. There are very few "old fashioned" instructers out there, seem to be alot of lazy ones, of course to follow up on your point, if that's all they are making after all the education maybe we can't blame them?

You are absolutely correct.

If the person isnt interested you could have a PhD program and they would suck :)

Well said.

Well...I guess I can go back to a statement you made earlier... You can send anyone in to take the NCLEX and, properly "prepped", may be able to pass. Well, wouldn't the same be true for getting a degree, as the "standard for a profession"? Anyone who can float through coursework and tests can obtain a degree. They can even fumble their way through clinicals most of the time without much effort. However, a GOOD nurse (i.e. one who actually cares) is going to be the one who, ADN or BSN, takes the time for the patient. I have seen plenty of people who would have, and eventually did, make wonderful nurses. But they had problem with taking tests or studying habits, etc. I don't believe that a degree makes the nurse.

Well

Befofe i came here i was under the impression school was VERY expensive. However, the state univ. is 3/4 what it cost me for my degree which was definitly subsidized. Having said that, one state univ isnt gonna accomodate everyone and your totally correct, the other private univ. are unreal expensive.

Its just how it is i guess?

Mike, I think you are forgetting about the difference of accessibility to education. We don't have subsidized education here. A lot of those that choose ADN do so because they cannot afford to attend a BSN program. That being said, I do wish there was more standardization between all programs, but it just isn't that way.

BTW

I just want to say how great this discussion is. Noone is screaming, noone is name calling we are simply talking. How refreshing is that from the SDN BS?

Since i decided on the CRNA route i havent looked back at that place. Somehow, i dont miss it.

Interesting discussion

Maybe im miscommunication what my intent is. Let me lay it out so its straight forward. Again not a personal attack just straight up opinion.

- The standard for a profession is a degree from a university, not an associates. It is of no matter that most RNs are ADNs, the program should go away as it did in Canada for the benefit of the profession.

- When i said the ADN was a big Rat Race what i meant was that it is FAR too much crammed into far too little time. My nursing was 4 solid years (and all summer each year). I did over twice as much clinical as the local ADN programs (and near 3x the BSNs) and was able to specialize in Critical care and Emergency. Ive never heard of such things locally. If thats the case everywhere, then yes its inferior.

- Of course there are excellent ADNs, experience is the great teacher. However, this isnt the standard for professions, a degree is. Even if the degree seems to be focused on management tracks.

University is so much more than the classes you take, its the culture of intellectualism avaliable which opens doors in thinking. This is lacking in both the ADN programs and community colleges in general. Please, dont waste your time arguing with me about it if you havent seen both sides cause "you dont know what you dont know". Ive been both places. CC for Medic and Univ. for nsg degree.

- Locally, the degree programs are weak. They spend whole classes on nursing theory and nursing dx. Basically, absolute bullshit which you complain about all the way through the class and forget the day after you graduate. In order to strengthen the profession i feel nurses need to move closer to the medical model in regards to hard science education. Less fluff, more professionalism is whats needed to gain respect and recognition.

- I agree with a previous poster that we really should be heading toward MSN prepared RNs as the standard anyway. even OT and PT has done that, nsg is the hold out. The excuse is always the same, "hospitals need RNs we cant institute a nation wide BSN (let alone MSN) standard or the nsg shortgae will get worse. Its exactly that sortof BS that holds back nursing and nurses in general. Its going to get worse regardless of the profession. Nursing, as a rule, alienates 50% orso of he workforce with its current PR and education, MEN. Head more toward science, the medical model and higher standards and that will change. Until then 90% of the public sees nurses as diploma women (or gay men) ass wipers who will do more for less because they care. No surprise, nursing does nothing to change that opinion either in its actions or education.

In order to understand the problem you have to think outside yourself and your own ego. Sure, making BSN a min entry would be hard, HOWEVER canada did it and somehow they manage. Go figure.

As for me becomming a masters prepared instructor for nursing, i have absolutely no interest. They dont pay, there is no respect and the establishment isnt willing to change. Nursing still manages to fall back on the crutch of "Nurses Care". How nice is that, sadly it absolutely denegrates the profession within the realm of medicine (read: science) driven health care.

Mike mike mike. Think you are a good poster and all but maybe that you havent realized what country you now live in. The ADN programs will not disappear they will only expand. With a nursing shortage on the loom and projected numbers thought to be as high as short of 400,000 nurses in the next decade or so we need nurses to maintain standards of care. Our education systems are very different obviously. You have your opinion to comparision since you have seen both and I have not. Yet complaining about something that has no effect on you and that actually helps the profession and the countrys hlth care system is useless here man. I know ADN nurses right now that could run backwards and forwards over you in the clinical arena despite the amt. of education you have. These people have taken most if not all of the science courses that BSN nursing students here have taken minus theory classes and all the other classes not focused on nursing. Yes getting the BSN makes your education more well rounded I agree but many of the BSN courses are not needed to be an effective RN sorry to brk it to you.

So until you find a solution that tackles these main issues in this country not canada then really your aurgument is crap in my opinion.

1-Somehow lower college tuition or pay for eveyones BSN degree or at least pay the difference b/t ADN and BSN degrees.

2-Shrink or population to 30 million (canada) from 300 million ( US) and shrink the rate that it is currently aging.

3- In a decade somehow pull 400,000 BSN, RN's out of your anal sphincter.

4-Open 100 new BSN programs throughout the country

5-Find several thousand more nursing instructors to educate all these BSN's.

6-Find proven data and research that RN's in canada are more effective than RN's in the US.

7- Come up with millions to increase the salary of masters and phd prepared nurse educators.

Comparing OT and PT to nursing has many flaws.

Here just found this online:

# of OT's employed 2004 - 92,000 with 122 Masters programs entry level

65 programs combo bachelor/master, 6 phd entry level

# RN's employeed 2.4 million with 674 bachelors programs, 846 ADN programs, 600 RN to BSN programs, 137 RN to MSN programs, 417 masters programs, 100 or so CRNA programs, 417 NP programs

PT's doesnt state number practicing but has 94 masters programs, and 111 programs offering doctoral degress.

Lets compare this to Canada Number of RN's 300,000.

So comparing PT/OT and their switch to only awarding masters degrees has eye opening difference in amount or programs to convert, size of work force, number of people trying to enter work force, projected shortages.

Not to mention a PT/OT can do therapy on many patients a day. They are needed for an hour maybe not even to do their part. An RN as you know can safely take care of certain amts of pts and must be with these pts the entire day. As a RN you are PT/OT when they arent their.

Just remember man you are in this country. Dont be like most Canadians, French and germans and preach how much better things are in your home country but at the same time live here, work here and wont prob ever go back home to live unless you are old and retired.

There is a fine line b/t confidence and cockyness and you seem to walk it a good bit. I do admit I walk it as well every once in a while. Just be careful man if someone especially a program director feels you are a little cocky it will def. effect admissions into CRNA school as well once you are admitted it can effect your training.