GracyMae

I was just talking about this - my friend did. As for numbers and national statistics, I don't know.

Well, not really. You have missed the point. She passed NCLEX because she was able to finish her nursing program, but she did not go through a program twice. She was simply able to finish somewhere else because she was kicked out after the 3rd semester. The point is that because the first school was using ATI tests to weed students out and to keep students from progressing (instead of using the tests in a more productive way), she never got the chance to complete the coursework at the first school and to show that she actually was a good candidate to pass the NCLEX. Instead, ATI supposedly predicted that she would not make it. But she did. These tests are given every semester as part of the school's accrediting purposes - to try to benchmark and predict and weed out which students are not going to help the school keep its high NCLEX pass rates so that they can dump these "bad apples." But they're not all bad apples. Like I've said, I think ATI is a great tool for learning and for practicing questions - they have some good tutorials - but some schools are using these tests for the wrong purposes and not utilizing them as they really could be utilized. Instead of allowing the tests to show them where the school can improve its curriculum and where the student can ID their weaknesses and improve with more curriculum work and maybe take the test again at a later date, they use the tests as artificial barriers to graduation. I thought the NJ Board of Nursing said it very well when they put a stop to these ATI practices: "The Board has concluded that these exams are best utilized to determine the overall effectiveness of a nursing program's curriculum, which is prepared and revised as necessary by its faculty. The Board finds that the purpose of the examinations (ATI, HESI, etc.) is to identify for faculty members specific areas of deficiencies in the curriculum and provide a blueprint for the faculty to revise the curriculum as necessary. Additionally, the Board finds that the results of these tests identify for individual students their specific areas of weakness so that they may adequately focus their attention on these areas in their preparation for the NCLEX examination. Commercially and/or faculty-prepared exit examinations should be used as diagnostic tools that are utilized to assess curriculum strengths and weaknesses as well as individual students' educational strengths and weaknesses and NOT as a SOLE criterion or artificial bar to graduation and/or eligibility to sit for the national licensing examination." Way to go, NJ BON!!

Congratulations! Way to GO!!

Thanks for the tip! I'll look for those

Yep. A friend of mine didn't make the required score on her ATI tests, got kicked out and had to go through all this red tape and finally ended up in a bridge program that did not use ATI and when she finally got to take the NCLEX, she aced it - 75 questions. ATI is not reliable.

YES! EXACTLY! AMEN to that!!!!!

Yes. You are correct - your comment doesn't HAVE to be constructive or helpful or anything - it can be just as condescending and judgmental and as stating-the-obvious and as unhelpful as you want it to be. However, just because something is a policy somewhere doesn't make it a good policy - doesn't make it something that people should just sit back and blindly accept because, "Oh well! That is the way the world is!" The fact of the matter is, Sparkleshine1210 wants to file an appeal. Like many of the students at my school, she probably did not understand how utterly nonsensical the ATI policy was until she got on the wrong side of it. So, she wants to try to make a change because she sees an injustice happening. And she apparently is not being unreasonable because apparently it IS an injustice, or else New Jersey Board of Nursing would not have done what they did when they ruled that ATI and other exit exams could no longer be used as artificial bars against graduation and sitting for the NCLEX. Obviously, the New Jersey students took a stand and look what it got them - CHANGE. Yes, the world is the way it is, but when people take a chance and go out on a limb to try to get unreasonable policies or anything else changed, that should not be shot down by people who just want to put their head in the sand or lay down and let bad policies steamroll over them because they've given up and succumbed to the belief that you're not supposed to try to change anything because somewhere along the line, they agreed to be governed by something that doesn't make any sense or because "that's just life." No, that's just sad "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

Absolutely! A nursing school cannot and will not teach their students everything they are going to need to know as nurses. That's a given. The uncountable things nurses come to know over time come from too many sources to list. But, that is not the issue being discussed here. I agree with you on consulting sources outside of what nursing schools provide - I am always seeking to know more and more from many different sources. Constantly. You can never learn too much. :)

thank you for posting this!!

EXACTLY! I'm not against ATI - I think their practice assessments and many things they offer are wonderful tools for nursing students. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI as a benchmarking tool to see where students are in their progress. I don't disagree with nursing schools using ATI for their own accreditation purposes. But, to gauge whether or not the students can move forward in or graduate from the school's program based on their ATI performance instead of their school performance, while at the SAME time NOT taking any responsibility for actually teaching ATI information is absurd and unreasonable. Students can pass all of their classes, yet schools can deny students their degrees if they don't reach a certain level on a test that can SUPPOSEDLY predict whether or not they can pass the NCLEX?? I know several people who passed the ATI predictor test but ended up failing NCLEX miserably. NCLEX is for licensure. Licensure is AFTER graduation. Call me crazy, but I think it is wrong for a school to deny a passing student their diploma just because one test supposedly (and possibly inaccurately) predicts that they won't be able to pass the NCLEX at a future time. Schools do it to protect their image for NCLEX pass rates (for accreditaion and funding purposes), but it is wrong. For those who want to just write it off as "whining" and "not taking responsibility" - read the ENTIRE content of all posts. I have not personally failed any ATI or class. I am simply presenting a valid argument against a flawed system of measurement in SOME nursing schools (not all schools do it this way) in need of serious reconsideration and revision. I am simply validating the frustration of the people I know who have dealt with the particular situation that was presented by Sparkleshine1201 in the original post. That's all. Thanks.

You're totally missing my point .... Maybe I explained it better in my other post. Otherwise, nevermind.

The problem is that a lot of times, the way some of these programs are run does not make any sense. Don't assume that someone who protests a way of doing things is not taking responsibility for themselves. I never failed an ATI test, myself - but that doesn't blind me to the fact that the system I speak about is flawed! When we got in our school, yes we understood the ATI policy - that you failed the class IF you failed ATI. BUT!...What we did NOT understand is how LITTLE the class had to do with the ATI test. There was no way for us to know that until we had already been through the class and taken the ATI. Had we known that at orientation, we could have stood up and said, "Wait a minute. Why would we retake the class if we pass it, but fail ATI? The material between the two is not even congruent. There must be another solution because that makes no sense." Therefore .... It makes no sense to have to retake a class that you've already passed when it does nothing to prepare you for the ATI test. My argument is that the penalty for not making the ATI level should be something ELSE besides going back and redoing a class that you've already aced. The class did not help prepare you for ATI so why retake the class when you fail ATI? That's a waste of time and money. There needs to be some other answer for ATI Failure. I'm not saying there should be no penalty, but the penalty should be something else - something that makes sense and helps solve the problem of ATI failure. AND, if ATI is so important (apparently more important than the class), then the school might want to consider teaching using ATI or help prepare the students better for ATI in some way, since ATI is the focus and not the class material. That's all I'm say'n, folks

Your comment comes across as being condescending and snarky and not really constructive, well-meaning, or helpful at all. Just because a nursing school decides on a certain way of doing things does not make it right and does not even make it make sense - AND ... has nothing to do with how the "world of adults works." The fact of the matter is that it is a seriously flawed system when these schools link ATI-passing to class-passing (and graduation) when the information/material to learn in each are not even remotely in the same realm (class = elementary school material, but ATI = graduate school material) ... and also when the school requires the student to learn ATI on their own time and does not teach ATI in the class. If someone passes all tests and assignments in a class, then they should be allowed to move forward and not be systematically failed out of the class because of ATI and the school's accreditation issues. ATI relevance should be separate from the class relevance IF it is not going to be taught as part of the class. ATI was worth 10% of the total points in our classes too, but they were only extra points. So, if you passed ATI, you got extra points, but if you failed ATI, you did not lose those points from your grade. So, people could end up with an A in the class, but if they did not reach a level 2.5 on ATI, then they were failed out of the class, even though they actually made an A in the class. If passing ATI = passing the class (ultimately), then teach the class from the more intense ATI books!!!!!! AND ... If Pass ATI = Pass NCLEX (in some schools' eyes) = Even better! Problem solved My point is that failing ATI should mean doing something else besides having to go back and retake a class that: A) you've already aced; and B) is not going to help you pass the ATI when you have to take it again. If passing ATI tests is so important to the schools, then they should take some responsibility in teaching the ATI to the students and not leave them out their hanging on their own time trying to study the ATI books on their own time, in between all of their other classes and trying to learn and interpret it all on their own. I feel your pain, iloveyouuux3 !! Our school went through the exact same BS. The students who are there now are in the midst of working with the dean and trying to change the entire ATI policy at the school. If you ban together with all of your classmates - even the ones who did pass ATI - and construct some good arguments (feel free to use some of mine if you like) and go to the Dean, you CAN get things changed ... hopefully!!! Good Luck!! :)

I disagree. I know many people who went to schools that required ATI testing - they passed the cumulative ATI exam at the end, which supposedly proved they had a 90-something % chance of passing NCLEX, but they did not pass the NCLEX. I also know people who have failed ATIs and passed NCLEX. ATI is not as good of a determiner of passing NCLEX as some might think. ----------------------------------- Sparkleshine1210 - I totally feel your pain!! The kicker is that students have to study for each semester's ATI test on their own time - it is not part of the curriculum. They have a book to study for the class and they have a separate book to study ON THEIR OWN for the ATI test. I think it makes no sense that you can pass all of your classes (i.e.- show you have learned whatever the school was trying to teach you) and then not get to get your diploma because you failed the ATI test that you had to try to study for on your own time ... when you did not have any extra time. If the school really feels that passing ATI = passing NCLEX, then they need to start teaching the same stuff (or same level of stuff) that is in the ATI books. In other words, if schools are going to link ATI grades to being able to pass classes and continue on each semester and to being able to graduate, then they need to start teaching from the ATI books! If failing an ATI means that you have to fail the class you're taking in the same semester (even though you actually passed every test and assignment in the class), then apparently, the school considers ATI information to be more important than the stuff they are teaching in the class. If the ATI material is more important, then schools should teach the student FROM THE ATI BOOKS! That way, they would learn the apparently "important" stuff AND they would pass their ATIs ... which by the school's logic would mean that they would pass NCLEX ... which would also be good for the school's continued accreditation and funding. Makes sense to me! Ideally, the ATI test for each semester is supposed to go with the material in the class that is being taught that same semester, but that was never the case in our school. The stuff we got in class was like elementary school and the stuff we needed to know for ATI was like graduate school. So, the classes did not really prepare you for the ATI tests - so it never made any sense to any of us as to why when someone failed the ATI test, their punishment was to go back and retake the class (even when they had already passed everything in the class). That makes no sense. Why would failing an ATI mean you need to go back and waste a semester (time and money) taking a class that is not going to prepare you for or help you with taking the ATI test again??? This system is severely flawed! I'm not sure if you are making a grade appeal or an appeal to change policy, but good luck, Sparkleshine1210!! If you haven't already, maybe you could make some of the arguments I have pointed out, here. [please pardon any typos I've missed - it's late and I'm tired and this topic hit such familiar nerve with me that I just started typing feverishly in response]

I would just go ahead and do the BSN program, if I were you.