CRNAzzle

Okay, I haven't started yet but the notion of more education simply for public image is enough. What's with nurses always trying to take the easy way around education? So many online programs and accelerated this RN to this BSN or this ADN to DNP, and etc. If it were such a gem in the educational realm, why don't we see all the pharmacy, medical, physical/occupational therapy, dental, etc. etc. go the same route? To keep their instructor's paid? I am sure that is part of it but do you see any 'official' online or accerated programs for any of those programs? (Note: there are some accelerated MD programs but with stellar pre-req's). Like I said before, a doctorate doesn't create a super CRNA or a super anything. But trust me when you tell a layperson you have a terminal degree, it means something and that something is what nursing needs especially NA if we are to maintain our status and our eventual job security. Do I need to finish my program before I can safely make this conclusion? No. Even if it is to keep up with the rest of the health professions, it is worth it. Studies in the future will confirm outcomes based on each. We gotta stop trying to take the short cuts and being 'just' a nurse as many of us have so many times heard. Maybe it's time to change that? My rant is completed :)

I appreciate the response. It adds to great discussion. It isn't about individual cases and anecdotal instances regarding this one particular BSN student you worked with or this other ADN student or heresay on the floors. It has to do with the philosophy of the programs, BSN vs ADN. We have all met the bright and the not so bright from all disciplines whether it be cardiovascular surgery or housekeeping. That's not the point to make blanket statements. And I don't think I did in my original post. My point about more formal education is that it's geared differently. They focus more on integration, evaluation, rationalizing, research, and more 'thinking'. For the public's sake, all of our programs need to be competitive, if they aren't already. I am not necessarily passing judgement out of my behind. My point is not to compare a NEW grad doctorate prepared CRNA vs a diploma CRNA with 20-30 years experience, that would be foolish. Now, take that doctorate prepared CRNA and give them the same 20-30 years experience and on average (not 100%, of course) there would be a disparity in overall ability when compared to the non-doctorate prepared CRNA with the SAME amount of experience. The key here would be the new-aged, if you will, approach to education now-a-days compared to the more task-oriented one from the past. The DNAP CRNA with the same 20-30 years of experience as the non-DNAP CRNA with the same experience would ON AVERAGE show a difference in ability. Lots of experience can compensate for lack of more formal education, yes. But I would place my money on the fact that more education adequate experience would produce the better practitioner. The smoothness you are talking about may very well be routine and expertise in a given field which is a given no matter what area we examine. But how many old-school CRNA's/RN's/etc. would be fond of doing research today if they were never TAUGHT the importance of it in their formal education? That's only an example, as research isn't everything. Also, don't be so quick to pass judgment yourself :) when you say: "In general most doctorate prepared CRNAs aren't that good at delivering anesthesia." Because how long have these doctorate degrees/programs for CRNA's been around? I believe there are only a handful of them even as I write this right now. But give these CRNA's 20-30 years and I am sure you will see a difference (positively). Regarding online programs... it just sounds silly. If for example, to the public you were to say, "I was an online prepared surgeon," what kind of reaction would you anticipate for the layperson? Even if they 'don't know any better' we shouldn't place ourself in a position to tarnish our image. Whether or not some courses in school happen to be online doesn't mean they are 'online programs' which only require you to show up once a month while you spend the other half working full-time. CRNA's perform the same service as MDA's. We ought to demonstrate similar educational preparation and WANT to learn as much as possible, whether through more formal education or not. Nursing's public image could do away with more kicks and punches as has already been done by lack of terminal degree preparation and online programs.

Why are you considering medical school? Also all of those carribean schools are a joke. Including Antigua. Another popular joke school you will hear about is Ross University. These schools have to advertise to get any applicants and anyone and everyone who applies to them has usually exhausted their US choices due to inability to get in and end up getting in to these carribean schools. Fact: carribean schools have an average MCAT school of about 14 while US schools have an average of about 26. Think about it. All of these issues will come up if you decide to apply to US residencies, especially popular ones like anesthesia.

JWK is a frequent poster on other forums as well. He's an AA student and/or AA. Explain much? Yep.

Paindoc, I thought you were a jackorifice when I read your first post. BUT now I see your point. And it is a good one. I have a BSN and graduated with a 4.0, was in the honors college at my university, was an anatomy TA, and took ALL of the required usual pre-medicine courses (including physics, organic chemistry, etc.) and obtaining A's or A+'s in all of them BEFORE I applied to CRNA this past year (and got in). I also currently work in ICU and I have to agree with you, EDUCATION is key, ESPECIALLY for nursing. I cannot stand the ADN nurses who work with me who got into their programs based on a non-competitive LOTTERY. I don't understand why these programs are not mandated by the ANA to up their standards. In summary, their critical thinking is NOT there. I have had many students who are in ADN and BSN programs and there is a HUGE disparity between the two... the BSN students are significantly more 'bright'. And by bright I mean this: no one cares if you can start an IV faster your first day on the job as an ADN than a BSN but can't think your way through why you should use fentanyl instead of morphine in an obese trauma patient. BSN and today's education teaches critical thinking, research, and application of knowledge and less focus on "tasks" without rationale. Tasks will come with practice, but critical thinking is a learned behavior that requires a strong knowledge base topped with reasoning, evaluation, and rationale. I agree with paindoc. All advanced practice nursing ESPECIALLY something as critical as anesthesia should be at the BARE minimum a DNAP/PHD/DNP/etc. degree. This advanced education teaches one to think, to apply advanced concepts in physiology and pharmacology into practice instead of being task oriented as paindoc mentioned when saying old CRNA's MAY (not all of course) simply get into a routine of blindly following a sequence of events of intubation --> recovery. These degrees also emphasize research which is essential to any field of practice. The DNAP/DNP degrees teach a whole other type of student in general. It would be better for the public and profession if grandfathered NP's/CRNA's were REQUIRED to go back to school and earn today's degrees. We should be thirsty for more education. More knowledge, more ways to tackle the same situation in the OR, etc. It seems that old nurses are sometimes (not always, again) indeed stuck in their ways, from bedside to CRNA. The ADN programs need to go. Additionally, all online programs need to go with them. If you don't have the time to attend class face-to-face with your peers and instructors, then maybe you shouldn't be going to school (but but, I have a family! Again, maybe you should reconsider your priorites). Any online program for any healthcare profession is a joke to us and to the public and should be disbanded. But paindoc, don't complain about our salary to that of 'other' MD's. Compare our duties to that of a plug-and-chug family practice physician managing the same old chronic diseases day in and day out. Who should get paid more? In reality, it would do hospitals, insurance companies, and today's healthcare system a huge favor to pay MDA's same as CRNA's. If the same safe and effective anesthesia is provided by both, then why is there a huge disparity in salary?

I didn't have the CCRN but I had tons of other stellar stats such as all pre-medical science courses with A's and above including 2 years of ICU experience at a very large metro hospital.

Um, yeah AA's are the ASA's poor attempt to compete with CRNA's and protect the MDA's. CRNA all the way. Think of how much experience you get from the nursing education with a BSN and then at a minimum of 1 year of ICU experience compared to that of NO prior experience required by an AA.