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Thanks for the non-threatening and non-rude post, however, I guess I got too worked up over the last persons comments. I love a good intelligent discussion but sometimes get to involved personally! Happens some times! [/b] I hope you are not implying that my post was rude and threatening. As I said previously my Union Experience goes back to 1965. I also showed how rudely I was treated by the only nurse's union I ever belonged to which, after taking a lot of my money, helped me to get fired. Jay Jay:kiss

Is there any other kind of union leadership? I would devote the rest of my useful life to any union which truly supported the rank and file. Sadly, I doubt that any such entity will ever exist. I began my union education in my first job out of high school. I joined the UAW at my first job in a car plant. After I had enough seniority to transfer to the day shift, I asked my boss about a transfer. A week or so later I asked him again. After he "hemmed and hawed" I told him that if he couldn't give me an answer by lunch time, I wanted to talk to the committee man. He immediately said, "Oh no, there's no need for that, let me see what I can do." By lunch time I had my transfer. While I was in nursing school I worked as an attendant in a mental hospital. While I worked there the "boys from New Jersey" organized the lower ranks of my hospital. I voted against them, but I musta been in Florida. I got a memo from personnel that said, "You are working in a closed shop--pay your "service fee" or be terminated." I joined the union, and asked who my representative was. It turned out to be a cook on the day shift. How could a cook on days understand or deal with the work rules issues of a ward worker on Midnites (never mind how direct-care workers vastly outnumbered kitchen people). I worked at a "closed shop" hospital in another county for over two years. After my 60 days' probation was up, I asked someone who my union representative was. It was Lori, the charge nurse. How do you suppose I would have felt if my foreman in the car plant was also the shop steward? Hospitals have shown me how craftily they deal with unions. When I was doing clinicals there was a ward clerk who attempted to unionize. They fixed her little red wagon! They saw to it that she would never again work in any hospital. I have watched three major hospitals become unionized. They all used a "divide and conquer" stategy. The first two accepted union employees only at the levels below RNs (but not at or above). The last place excluded all staff below the RN level. They put high seniority nurse's with cushy day jobs in all the power union positions. When my boss decided to get rid of me, the union reps helped her. They not only kicked me out of the hospital, they kicked me out of the county. I applied to work in another big hospital after I left. I got a nice tour and interview from a lady that I'd worked with in the other place. She was ready to hire me, when I said, "I have some other applications pending--I'll get back to you in a couple of days." Guess what? When I called back three days later, "Oh gee, I'm sorry we've filled all of our positions for now--please feel free to re-apply in the future." Ha ha! She'd just dropped a dime to her sister down the road. The union who "represented" me, (AKA helped put me out), was de-certified from a different hospital on the other side of the state. There is more hope on the horizon. Check into the California Nurses Association, who kicked the ANA out of their state. I have visited their web site. The first thing they got was decent working conditions (AKA, not being treated like children) after many years with the same hospital. In CNA contract hospitals, after a number of years, nurses no longer have to work nites and weekends. Hospitals always seem to have it all wrong. The longer you work for them the more they treat you like a turd. Nothing galls me more than to work for a hospital that lures in new grads and kisses their behinds, while treating loyal committed staff so poorly. A survey was done by a nursing journal in major U.S. cities. They looked at new nurse salaries compared to staff who have been with the hospital 2yrs or more. Their conclusion was that if an old timer wants a raise, she should quit for a few weeks, (long enough for them to forget your name), and then re-hire. This mag swore it worked every time. My experience with unions taught me to give little hope for nurses. NURSES ARE NEVER GOING TO GET ORGANIZED, as long as nurses continue to become nurse bureacrats. Whenever a nurse exchanges her lab coat for a business suit, she turns her back on her sisters who are still on the floor. Do you think nurse managers care about insufficient staffing on your floor? Why would they do that if they are on profit sharing? Every call-in is a dollar in their pocket. Show me the union that stands behind staff nurses and I'll work with them forever. So far all the union has shown me is that they're the ones who show up with the Surgilube (or K-Y) just in time for my next SCR*W J*B)! Someone needs to start a new thread. I would do it, but I do not know how. The thread should be called, "Nursing Unions--a solution or just another problem?" :kiss

Unfortunately, I'm afraid the unions won't win on this one, simply because, unlike nurses, these workers are easily replaced. And there are signs that the union is cracking a bit since the strike has gone on much longer than expected. [/b] I think all of us have lost our focus on what should be the REAL ISSUE in this dicussion. I take issue with Lizz's statement that nurses are not easily replaced during a strike I know of at least two instances, in as many years, of strikes against hospitals in my state. In both cases agency nurses provided seamless coverage during the strike. In one case I personallly knew some of these "scabs." Some of them were agency nurses (who were 50% of our staff) at the last place I worked. The real issue is "guess what they want?" I was on vacation, just after the Calif. recall, and during the first week of the strike there. On a radio station I heard someone say that, "We have strikes in three instances; the groceries, LA transportation, and a major defense contractor--In each instance the issue is the same--HEALTH CARE INSURANCE." Just after I got back from vacation we had for the first time in history, contract settlements with the big three automakers--with no strike against any of them. After the contract was settled the President of the UAW wrote a commentary that said, "We have placed yet another band-aid to a much larger problem--that of universal health care." "Until the federal government does something to provide universal coverage this problem will keep coming back, each time in worse shape." It seems that the closer I look the uglier this monster becomes. I watched on CSpan the "debate" by the congress on the medicare mess. I saw Junior crowing on live TV about "PRESCRIPTION COVERAGE FOR SENIORS" within minutes of the vote. Please don't get me started about Juniors re-election campaign, or his nails-in-the-Democrats coffin. I think what galls me the most is how carefully engineered the, "doing away with medicare as we know it" was done. The sh*t won't hit the fan until Junior is safely in his second term! People, let's all take a look at the real issue. Dennis the Menace says we should scrap medicare. I'm not sure if he's correct about this, but I would much prefer scrapping it to any attempt to resuscitate it (and dealing with all of its band-aids). I haven't wasted much time finding out about Dean's proposed solutions to the health care mess. I am quite certain that no other politician is better qualified to look at the problem. Someone on this site pointed out his lack of experience and ablility in foreign policy. I would have no problem supporting a Dean-Clark/Clark-Dean or Dean-Kerry/Carry-Dean ticket. For that matter, I am inclined to agree with Al Franken, "Any Democrat is better than any Republican", especially if one considers health care and foreign policy. My caveat goes back to the Carter presidency. Reagan convinced us that things couldn't get worse, and then proved to us that they could! What every U.S. citizen needs to see is that we have the BEST health care in the world, and the WORST way of paying for it. As a nurse for over 20 years, I have learned to "make do" with what little I have to work with. As a citizen I feel it is time to DEMAND much better. Jon:roll

Great thread--lotsa good posts! Many good watches in my lifetime. Give m'self a butt-kick for not buying a Rolex Oyster when I went to Nam. Have had those neck hangers (cheap stop watches) & like not having to worrry about dipping into the yuck. Got a fake Rolex (Chinese). Best fake I've ever seen (including the gas station & Tiajuana) for $20 from a DEA buddy of a buddy in NYC. Buddy told me not to wear this "Divers watch" in the shower though. Love Timex Indiglos & the Casio gadget watches. Good luck figuring out which gadgets you really need Best watch I ever had for all around is a Seiko Quartz divers watch. Been wearing mine for abt 5 yrs. Had to put her on the shelf 6 mos ago when she took a "hammer-blow" fall & the hands stopped. Digital still keeps perfect time. I say it's perfect for me cause it's practical has both hands and a digital (which gives me 24-hr/2nd time zone). Been using the cheapo Chinese job that I got for Nurse's Week at the last place I worked. It's fine, even has a light, which neither of my "diver's" watches has. Gotta wear something else to my next job interview, though. This one has the hospital logo on it. :roll

Ilovesnoopy, None of my 2-legged family members is up yet this Christmas morning, so let me take a few minutes to express how much I enjoyed your post and the replies to it. OOCH-Canada told you what worked for her, and it works for me too. What I mean is that I feel that all of my patients deserve at least ONE reasonable explanation of my relationship with them. My first encounter with any patient frequently includes pulling up a chair and obtaining eye level contact. In the madhouse that ER usually is the first thing I do is apologise that it took so long for me to get to them, but now that they have me I am ALL theirs. For GSWs this might consist of hand-holding and explaining that a lot of people will be doing a lot of things, (needles, X-rays & many, many "stupid" questions). I never cease to be amazed at how many times I get the first reasonable response from patients who are angry, hostile, drunk, high and psychotic. It's always worth a try, but the hardest tricks are timing, and resisting the all-too human inclination to fight back/agrue ect. Alzhiermers folks are a challenge to everyone. Before I got my nursing license I got a B.A. in Psych. I worked on locked wards all the way through nursing school. I worked with children and adolescents, though, so I learned almost nothing about Alzhiemers. I learned much more about it from my next door neigbors mom, a retired teacher who "lost it" along with her husband. Mary Ann (fake name) taught me more about Alz. than any of my pts. My wife spent a few months as M.A.s day-sitter, we would take her with us to choir practice or social events at our church. She couldn't tell you what happened 5 minutes ago. She never called me by my real name. She called my wife by the name of her daughter (odd, since my wife is white.) She called me by her son-in-laws name. After comparing notes with Rod (fake name) he told me that she called him by MY name, so maybe either of our names just means, "White boy" to her! Ruby (fake name) our close friend and retired nurse/geriatric SW, said that my efforts at reality orientation were futile with M.A. Ruby said, Dont waste your time trying to ration with her." After all Ruby, is older than M.A. and spent many years caring for seniors. At one of our day trips we ran into a friend who had worked at the same school as M.A. It was amazing at how many mutual collegues she could remember after he spent a few minutes reminiscing with her. It kinda reminded me of my first semester clincal where my patient told me about WWI, but was unable to tell me what happened 2 min ago. Caring for retirees from the helping professions is a challenge also. An LPN told me about her experience at the Old Nun's Home. Mother Superior could deliver "RIGHT ON" obcenities that would put the saltiest sailor to shame! Which part of the health care system is more neglected; mental health or elder care? I try to get help with either one whenever I see it. I believe all seniors and ALL of us need help. I lost my psychiatrist along with my insurance recently, but believe me as soon as I have "benefits" again this is the first thing I intend to rectify. My last insurance had a $2,000 lifetime cap. Would that get me more than a week under lock-and-key? Would it get me more than a few months of psychotherapy? I doubt it. Many years ago I learned that my practice would be severely restricted, if not precluded, if I ever get a psychotic diagnosis. My only option is mental health. After all, we've put all the mentally ill onto the street or prison. WE DO NOT NEED MENTAL HEALTH--THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MENTAL ILLNESS! That's what the government-insurance industry tells us. We gotta keep trying though. Follow nurse62's advice and do the best you can to have SW assistance for your patients and for you. Age 34 before realizing that I was born a nurse. Rare day goes by that I don't say at least a small prayer before and after every shift. Thank for sharing your shift with us. I will remember you in my prayers, as long as you remember me in yours. I need all the help I can get. After 20 yrs in ER I was fired/crusified and am going back to Psych Nursing. I suspect that I may be jumping from the frying pan to the fire. Keep up your posts. I have learned the therapy of hugs. If you don't need one, I do! :kiss

I wish somebody would stop agencies from staffing the ER I just left. Then they would have to treat staff decently. My bosses were too busy kissing the pool nurses' behinds to treat me as anything more than cheap day labor. "Yassum Boss, Ise jus' doin' de best I can!" I should have suspected something was wrong when I found out they had PERMANANT openings for full time day positions. That place was at least 50% agency in '95 and it still is. Busiest place in town with the crappiest pay. I don't know who was stupider; administration for paying twice as much for agency people, or me for working in that hell hole for such idiots for all those years. Oh, things'll be better in twenty-oh-four, Cause I won't be workin' in Hell no more! :roll :chuckle

mrsabraford, You are not paying attention! Did you read my last post or better that of mmb-rjd? Better still would get the books cited in each post. Did you know that there are lawsuits pending in several states by former Walmart employees, who were FIRED for telling people what a pittance they were being paid? Not all of my knowledge about Walmart is second hand. While we were driving up I-75 year before last my wife and I stopped in a family resturaunt in rural Tennessee. Great breakfast stop, the place was filled with locals. One of the big stories in the local paper was about Walmart trying to get a zoning ordinace variance so that they could set down a monster in this pretty little town. Not all of Sam's tactics are new. In the 70s one of the networks aired, "The Malling of America." It showed how corporations, opening strip malls, were wiping out Main Street, USA. Sure, Walmart has everything. No other store in town has anything because there are no other stores in town. Sure, Walmart prices are great, at least at first, but don't they creep up after there is no more competition? I can understand how anyone who lives near NYC would fail to understand Walmart. Is there one in Manhattan yet? If there's no Walmart in NYC, could it be that there's too much competition? The next time you go to Walmart, see if they have any of the books mentioned on this site. I know they don't, but while you're out, why don't you buy a clue? :roll

I don't know where I stand in the Kroger thing, but Wal Mart?? No problem! I saw Ehrenreich was on "Book TV" on Cspan/ If you haven't checked out Book TV, you're not paying attention. She was on a panel with Michael Moore and Ben Cheever. Haven't checked Ben out yet, but of course I get all of Mike's books as soon as I can. It's easy to dismiss Mike as more of a problem than a solution. I did the same with Al Franken, 'til I LISTENED to him on C-Span. (The majors won't let him talk--If you question this hypothesis look at how they carefully edited their reporting of his acceptance speech at the Academy Awards--he spoke for about 30 seconds but the news only showed the first 10 seconds where he was booed, and not the entire speech, with more cheers than boos afterwards.) EVERYONE needs to read Ehrenriech. The establishment needs to see how Sam does it. Working stiffs (staff nurses) need to read it for self-defense. What makes Barb special is that she's a professional jounalist and her book is chock-full of footnotes and bibliography. This makes her more than just another whiner (AKA Dennis Miller--and it's not because he's conservative--I saw his entire stand-up at a local theater.) I was in Southern California during the 2nd week of the grocery workers strike. We were on vacation so I had better things to do than to learn about the strike. I did need to know what they were about before I decided where to buy a case of beer. They way I heard it, they were walking over $15 a week co-pay. Now $15 out of a part-timer's check could be a lot, but for somebody who makes more than RN's? If you don't think grocery clerks earn more than RNs look at the mid 80's article in a major nursing journal. (Can't remember which one--I guess I read too many!) They surveyed several major cities and found out that they do. While we were there I heard some dude on the radio talking about the LA Bus Worker's strike and some folks who were walking at a big aerospace contractor. The dude said, "We have three major strikes in the state, and every one of them is over health insurance." Next time I talk to one of my Calif. friends, I'll have to ask him if Arnie is doing anything about that! We had, right in my own home town, the first time a new contract with all of the big three automakers last year. It was also the first time that a contract was settled without a strike against anybody. (The UAW may be finally seeing how they've strangled the goose that laid the golden egg.) After the settlement there was a 1/2 page commentary from the President of the UAW. This guy said that the greatest obstacle was health insurance. We put a band-aid on it this time, but until we fix the whole thing, it will get worse before it get better. I believe somebody said it in this thread. If you give them a nickel, next year they'll demand $100 bucks. That's true, but there's no such thing as "free" health care. Chrysler (now Daimler-Chysler) announced their method of stopping the red ink hemorhage in June. They just doubled the co-pay for retirees. So lessee, do I see my doctor (before it's too late), or buy groceries (before my old lady starves)? What really puked me out was the "re-elect Junior" campaign, AKA PRESCRIPTION COVERAGE FOR SENIORS! I watched as much of the "debate" (with generous doses of Tigan/Compazine) as I could. Instead of trying to FIX, or (at least look at) Medicare they rigged it to go out of business. The sh*t won't even hit the fan until Junior has been coronated again. Haven't heard much from Dean, but I'd vote for him. As an ER doc, (I've been an ER Nurse for 20 yrs) he was right in the middle of the health care mess. I could vote for Dennis the Menace on health care (he said we should scrap out unfixable medicare), but only if he had the general to keep his finger off the button. I listen to the Democrats mostly for entertainment only since they are most likely carefully maneuvered by Juniors pals so that we'll get the one that is easiest to beat. They look pretty stupid, even without the goading of Juniors boys, aguing about which two out of the TEN of them are gonna get their A**es kicked! Let's all watch what a crappy band-aid they put on health care insurance in this Kroger's thing. Man, the headlines on that one will be a 4 beer hoot! I just heard about another big grocery stike against Kroger's biggest competitor right here in town. I wonder what THEY'RE whining about?? :roll

Do you know that if you are working in an "at will" state have no rights at all? One day my boss decided she didn't want me to work any more. If she had just fired me that day, my life would be much simpler now. After working in the same hospital for 20 years, I complained about working conditions. I gave her a complaint memorandum in May. In June I handed her a stack of complaints about harrassment by medical interns. I told her that I had complained to no one else and that my complaints to her were in confidence. She sent my complaints upstairs and they suspended me without pay in June. At the end of August she fired me, after telling me the day before that I would be reinstated. I had a 'hearing" this Tuesday which declined to reversing my firing. I am not eligable for unemployment since they said they found a wine bottle in my locker, the day after the suspension. If I ever get any job doing anything it would be amazing. If I ever work as a nurse again, it would be a miracle. Throughout my career every lawyer I talked to about harrassment at work received the same answer, "When they fire you, come and see me." I am 57 and have been working since I was 14 and have never been fired from any job. So now that I've been fired every lawyer tells me the same thing, "As an at will employee you can be fired at any time for any reason, or for no reason." My experience proves that there is no reason for the employee handbook/ policies and procedures manual should exist. I always thought that both of these documents were at least "gentlemen's agreements." NOT SO! Every lawyer I've seen asks to see the employee handbook. Why? As a non-union employee in an at will state it is totally meaningless. Junior and his friends now want to save money with a law that says your supervisor can make you work 16 Hrs, seven days and not pay you any over time pay. WELCOME TO THE TWENTY-FIRST CENUTURY! :roll

I have to take exception to teeituptoms remark about keeping the foreigners out. Two Filipino nurses have described to me what their nursing education was like. In the Phillipines any nurse gets more clinical learning than most physicians in the U.S. When they practice in US, we think because they speak with an accent, (usually in English much better than mine) that they don't know what they are doing. That's why they tend to cluster in CCU's, and even have the NERVE to speak to each other in Takalog. When I see a physician for the first time I feel better if he speaks to me with an accent, particularly if it is Indian. One resident told me that they don't even have monitors, so they actually have to examine the patient! Let's not make"keep the foreigners out" part of the discussion. What we should be talking about is the "nursing shortage!" Yes, it's all about working conditions. When are we going to stop putting multimillion dollar "band aids" on a problem that requires major surgery?

I welcome utilizing all resources to solve the nursing shortage. One of my nursing school classmates had been a dentist in the Phillipines. Victor was told by the state board of dentistry that he would have to take two years of dental college and then sit for dental boards. Working as an nurse's aide, he decided that becoming a nurse made more sense. I recall that a number of years ago I saw a story about a physician who worked as a nurse for a month. He gained an entirely new perspective about nursing. In the letters to the editor a nurse correctly pointed out that he was guilty of practicing nursing without a license. I was fired from my last job because DOCTORS (interns) do not like me. This is what the world needs to know. Doctors are NOT nurses. That's why they have a different licence than we do. In my state it is illegal for doctors to "waste" narcotics. A pharmacist told me that only nurses and/or pharmacists can do so? Nurses do a lot of other things that any physician has no clue how to do. When you have a difficult IV or blood draw do you call a doctor? I don't I try to find a phlebotomist from the lab, an EMT/aide, (if I can find one, I get somebody from oncology). When you can't get a foley or NG tube do you call the doctor? Not me. I call the LPN/aide from the nursing home. The point is, if you do not hold a nursing license, you are not a nurse. Do these "doctors" pass the same test that I do? If they do not, they have no business practicing as nurses. Jon:roll

Rosieposey, Don't know if you read my last post, but here's what worked for me. I have a hearing in the morning. I will walk into a room all alone, neither lawyer nor witnesses, who will either end my nursing career, or put it back on track. Like somebody else said in a earlier post, "their minds are 80% made up to trash you." Do not consider them the enemy, but as allies. Look em dead in the eye, say as little as possible, only what you MUST say to defend yourself. Answer questions simply and concisely. If you can, answer each question in only three ways; yes, no, or I don't know. If you intend to plead ignorance, tell them that you have definitely learned that it was wrong, and thank them for helping you learn that it was wrong. Be emphatic that you now realize how wrong it was and you wish you could take it back. Find some coaches. Lawyers know law, but they might not know beans about nursing review boards. See if you can find some nurses. What about former instructors. They should know something about review boards, and would love to help a former student. Do you know any old hag (sorry, sometimes the old boy just can't help himself) nurses who might help you educate yourself? In most states review board actions are a matter of public record. If your lawyer has not been giving you information about what to expect, maybe you need a better lawyer. In an earlier post someone suggested that having a lawyer might imply guilt. DO NOT LISTEN TO SUCH NONSENSE! In today's world you need a lawyer even more than you need clean underpants. I called my lawyer the minute I suspected I was in trouble. and was emailing him important stuff within hours. Most of the help that has gotten me through all this (no income for 6 mos., maybe no future in nursing) has come to me came as a result of prayer. I'm not very religious, so I ask my friends who are to pray for me. Their prayers, and my tiny ones, have brought me help that I never would have expected. One friend told me how to tap my IRA to live on. Another one takes us to neat shows/concerts/mujseums that are fun, cheap and free. My lawyers have been helpful in building a decent legal case if the disciplinary route goes the wrong way. The greatest God-send is Don (fake name), although he'd be last to admit to being a child of God. After Don had us over for a wonderful dinner that he cooked he coached me about how to handle my hearing. At my hearing I get two times to tell my side. I wrote the "script" for my "opening statement" and emailed it to Don. Ten minutes later Don emailed me back a closing statement (based on his many years as a hospital nurse) that I couldn't write in a month! He also committed to meeting me at a resturaunt before my hearing to coach me through another rehearsal. At noon tomorrow I will be a different person I will do the same thing that I did after spending two long days sitting for nursing boards. I will give my self a big pat on the back and hug for FINISHING. I won't get the official thumbs up/down until maybe next year, but I can forget all about this crap. I can sing in concerts and enjoy my holidays without the least thought about any of it. Good luck, and remember to send good vibes to everyone, cause you never know which of 'em will come back better than you sent them. Jon:kiss

"I don't personally know anything about Harper hospital except I don't think it's a very good area because it's in Detroit." Don't pay the slightest attention to another Detroit basher. What do you mean by good area? I was born I a Detroit hospital in 1946. I worked in the main DMC campus for forteen years, all the while doing full-time volunteer work at my church, which is wilthin walking distance of my day job. For the past 20 years, I have walked around the "crime-ridden" Cass Corridor day and night, and the worst crime I have seen is "Hey man, got a quarter, cigarette, ect." or prositutes plying their wares. DMC hospitals are the best in the state in every specialty. I worked at Receiving ER for 14yrs, and then went to UofM ER for two years. U of M is world-renouned as a trauma center, although I can tell I can tell you some real horror stories in truama care there. U of M folks will be the last to tell you (since DMC is their biggest competitor) that Recieving is a regional burn center or that it was the first (and maybe the only) ATS certified Level I Trauma Center in the state. If you are considering Neuro ICU, you couldn't do better than Harper without relocating! I'm so sick of suburbanites saying anything in Detroit must be bad! I have lived and worked in Detroit (and yes, I am white) for over 20 years. According to FBI uniform crime statistics my chances of being mugged or car-jacked increase when I cross 8 Mile into Southfield. Jon in Detroit.:roll