middleager

I think what he is saying is sexism is viewed differently when the perp is a male than when it is a female. One of the previous comments was (paraphrased) Inappropriate comments are wrong anytime...can you now understand how women feel about men being sexist on everything else? Talk about a broad brush...sexism by men is condemned and rightly so, sexism by females is often justified or marginalized...that is the double standard that is being brought out be it but not recognized. Males are perps not victicms in peoples minds and that perception is hard to change for many people

I could not agree more. Most of what I experienced teaching JA were harmful stereotypes and of course being gay was one of them. Don't get me wrong, I have no issue what so ever with homosexuality, fully understand the gay community has it's own challenges in this society. But at the age where young people, in this case young men are choosing a profession they are heavily influenced by perception. The media does it's best to play that stereotype, just look at the number of gay male nurses on almost any series, Nurse Jackie, etc. We know this is Hollywood but for a 16-17 year old boy trying to figure out where he wants to go after school...it has an impact. I also don't think stereotyping males is as serious as say females and African Americans because historically males, especially white males have been the purveyors of discrimination not the victims, it will take awhile. Diversity in a profession as important and intimate as nursing could really make a difference in the patients experience. Not because one gender or the other is better or worse than the other, but because there is a certain level of comfort for many with people they can identify with.

I agree, that was my experience when I was doing a JA class in a local high school. Some of the same social stigma that keeps the number of females in engineering keep males from considering nursing. The question becomes what to do about it, and I think the answer is the same things we did to address the gender disparity in MD's continue to push the it is a great career for young men, feature males in ads about nursing and encourage educators to encourage males to go into nursing. Not much else you can do.

I agree, the comment implying one gender or the other has more personality problems, more or less behavior issues, or is more or less qualified has no place in these conversations because they are ridiculous

I agree 100% that the efforts should be at breaking down stereotypes, PR, perhaps recruiting into the profession is acceptable but it has to come down to whom is the most qualified. Nursing is literally a life and death profession, picking a less qualified person would be dangerous and irresponsible. Now, related but off the subject, how do you feel about affirmative action in other areas that benefit women. I am thinking of examples such as lowering physical requirements for fire and police to allow more women to pass the test? Those are physical requirements so not so much an apples to apples but I am curious. I agree with you but I think that should apply universally in all professions for race and gender. I am just curious as it seems in general we are more accepting of actual preference or affirmative action in gender and race depending on who the parties are. Once you get by the "I know a lot of females who aren't good...I think this is an interesting topic. It is timely as we start gearing up for a presidential election (I know...groan) where one of the probable candidates will be pushing gender hard. Just yesterday her statement was "Isn't it about time to have a woman in the Whitehouse". Not trying to go off topic or start a gender war I just find it interesting and wonder if we do not view workplace diversity different when the traditional roles are reversed.

Well Elkpark they are the same barriers that prevent females from being represented in any number in Silicon Valley, on Police forces, etc. Barriers do not have to be physical, they do not have to be prohibitive, they can be societal. Long after the civil rights movement or women's rights were established by law, societal barriers kept them from achieving equal status. There was a song a while back that had the line "there was a law passed back in 64 to give folks a little more, but it only goes so far when all people see is the box on the hiring line"....social norms, expectations, stereotypes can be just as restrictive as a law. Women can drive stock cares, blacks can't be quarterbacks, men can't be nurses...can you honestly say that the sterotype male nurses are gay was not a barrier to get past for some guys? And my main point, they have been trying to entice women into traditionally male occupations such as silicon valley, no real barriers stop them, but societal norms do. If we recognize the need to help diversify computer programing, even though in theory nothing stops women from working there...why is it wrong or not applicable to nursing...when half of your patients are male?

Understood, I found the statement to be pointless as well. The profession is constantly at the top of the most trusted, 90% of nurses are female...it makes one think the obvious conclusion is someone is doing something right most of the time. But sometimes we embellish to make a point. To level the field we tear the other down rather than building our side up. Given the opinion society has in where they place their trust...evidently not to many bad female nurses out there. And I agree 100%, I think it is fine to encourage either gender to go into specific fields to encourage diversity, but that should not precedence over qualifications, be that programing a computer or med-surg qualifications first then lets talk. I taught a Junior Achievement class several years on the value of getting an education and the opportunity it provided. I would always open with asking for a show of hands how many would consider various occupations, these were 8th-9th graders. One thing was very consistent, the boys rarely ever held up their hands to be a nurse...they would look around to see what the other guys were doing and then sit quietly while many of the girls would raise their hands. But when I asked, who would be interested in working as a legislator at the federal level, it was almost the opposite though not quite as defined. It got me interested and I have started working on a couple of endeavors, how could I get more boys interested in nursing and more girls in politics in my community. Change is slow but diversity, qualified diversity is usually good for all involved.

Well actually the history in men in nursing goes back to the Civil War when men were not allowed to be nurses as they needed soldiers to fight, and by the early 1900's most nursing schools allowed only females to enter. The Army & Navy Nursing Corps banned males from being nurses until after the Korean War though they could serve as medics since that role was on the battlefield. Prior there were many male nurse partly due to religious and "moral" norms of the early years. The current 9% male is every bit as much a result of discrimination and being blocked/discouraged from entering the profession earlier as females in MD's so affirmative action as in your example would apply. Then there is the issue with Silicon Valley, engineering has been open to women for many many years but few chose to enter so and yet Obama uses it as an example of a problem over and over, So again, why is it OK to push for diversity when females are the minority but it is the males fault when they are the minority. The barriers of overcoming stereotyping works both ways, the mentality that women aren't cops because it doesn't fit is just as wrong as men aren't nurses because they look down on the job. There are not many female cops for the same reason there are not many male nurses, society has said it shouldn't be for so long it takes time to break down the barriers real or imagined by the stereotype. The issues of lack of diversity in male dominated fields and nursing toward men are more alike than different. That said I agree, the comment (paraphrasing) that someone knew many women who weren't qualified to be good nurses was first off a broad generalization that flys in the face of what others including myself have found to be the case and would apply just as broadly to male so I understand and agree with that push back.

I find the comments challenging the OP why would there be a need to encourage males due to diversity or balance interesting. I remember distinctly when I was in college the effort to bring females into med schools to be MD's for exactly those same reasons. Affirmative action is based on increasing diversity. Obama is pushing for more females in the tech industries due to lack of diversity. There is no more important, personal, or intimate industry than healthcare and especially nursing. If diversity was important for MD's why would it not be the same for nursing? A patient is certainly more likely to be affected positively or negatively by diversity or lack there of than a line of code or hard drive and yet no one seems to consider the push to diversify the tech industry silly. I think the issue may be partially the fact that we are not used to thinking diversity is important when males whom are normally the majority are the minority.

I find the comment "If you don't like it don't work here, but don't judge us" to be a bit self serving or perhaps dismissive. People are judged every day. We all judge people and their actions daily. When you sit down at a table for dinner at a nice restaurant, you don't judge just the quality of the food, you judge how the people involved did their job and not just the mechanics of getting it to the table. Did they acknowledge you quickly, did they smile, were they friendly, courteous. You don't bother finding out did they have a bad day, is there stress in the home, did 2 people call off and they are short handed, is their boss a jerk, are they missing their kids birthday party to be there...you judge them on their actions and how they present themselves. That goes from the finest restaurant to the kid making min. wage at McD's. Ever get a kid behind the counter that acted like he didn't care if you were there or not, that talked to his/her friends while waiting on you? Did you ever judge them, their behavior? That goes in nearly every occupation, every job, if you took your car for an oil change and heard the mechanics laughing at some "fat ass woman" pumping gas would you think that was OK as long as she couldn't hear them? No where are people required to put more trust than in health care providers...shouldn't you hold yourself to a higher standard than the teen age kid at McD's...he has stress to.

Oh and Esme, I really appreciate your taking the time to correspond. I originally came to this site when I was considering a mid life occupation change. I ended up not doing it but am fascinated with what you all do. If I had it to do over and could do anything other than what I do, I think I would love being a nurse. I have made a boat load of money, but not really rewarding on a personal level like helping someone through the challenges you all do. My wife is a teacher, over the years has come to dislike the educational system but still loves those little folks so she stays. With that in mind I appreciate you taking time to enlighten and share with an outsider.

Esme12 while we tend to think equal rights means we are the same (between genders). I don't believe that is the case. While we discussed if the genders were reversed there would likely be a lawsuit, honestly neither of us took it as sexual harassment. He took it more as teasing to an extreme. To us it was not a whole lot different that if he was bald and they were teasing him constantly about that. It got old, wished they would lay off but nothing that would warrant creating an issue the magnitude of filing a sexual harassment case. Lets be honest, females can get away with this kind of teasing, behavior, whatever you want to call it because they are less likely to be seen as harassing, and to be honest men are less likely to take it as harassment, heck some would love it. But then men have not endured the ugly side of this like many women where teasing does go into harassment and even physical abuse so it is easier to laugh it off. Another one of those things that doesn't make it right, but more understandable. His point of bringing up was not that he was offended or intimidated, but more to show what being a guy in the "girls clubhouse" was like. I think it contributes to a lot of problems including in the medical arena where men are taught to suck it up and laugh it off, that's what a MAN does. As a result it contributes to our not seeking help when we should, and contributes to being unhappy with the way we are treated in the medical settings. We suck it up and don't say we are uncomfortable with things, then get ticked at the providers or ourselves because we were uncomfortable. I believe this contributes a great deal to the original post, I would ask the OP how many men complained or protested about it. While we argue we should get the same respect and consideration as the female patients in that example, how many complained or asked for it. Not saying the double standard is acceptable, because I still don't feel it was. Being treated differently because of gender is profiling period. But say nothing and you own part of it. Women are better at it because they had to do it to get even basic rights. I asked because I used to teach a junior achievement class at the local high school a couple times a year on the value of education and employment options. One thing I noticed is I had only one male in the numerous years I did it hold up his hand when I asked who have considered nursing as a career. He wanted to be a flight nurse so as you indicated, a specialty area. I have heard ER attracts males in nursing as well. The obvious thing I took away was young exactly your point, these young men (8th & 9th grade) saw it as a woman's profession and were afraid they would be called gay if the said they wanted to be a nurse. I was just curious if you saw anything being done to change that perception. I have done some things on my own to plant the seed for young men that nursing isn't a female or male career, it is a good career if helping people is your passion. I didn't know if the profession itself even had this on the radar as something that should be looked at.

Interesting dissection of Banterings conversation. The history of male MD's dominating the field is well known as well as women's struggles in general for equal treatment. It continues at some level today. I know a couple of men whom are RN's and have talked about being on the other end of that where they came into the "girls club". One talked about how one of the female nurses stuck a nickname on him by taking the one of the letters on his name (Doug) and turning it upside down. You get the picture. He said he just had to live with it and laugh it off until he moved and got a job at another hospital though he hated it. Both guys talked about being the minority and a little of an outsider. When I was in college....many decades ago, there was a conscious effort to encourage women to enter medicine. I am curious Esme12, do you see any efforts to increase gender diversity in nursing? Time and women standing up are largely for integrating the ranks of MD's. That was part of a larger women's right movement. What do you see with men coming into nursing? Is there any effort to address the disparity or is it just seen as a non-issue?

Esme12, thanks for the comments and clarification. I really think these discussions could be very productive if both "sides" could communicate on a more rationale level. The lack of discussion often leads to unneeded suffering, accusations, and animosity between people who should be working together. To your point I read a post where MD (male) was challenged on why he had to have a nurse (female) present for a vasectomy when all she did was stand there. The MD said when ever I cut anything I have back up who is also a witness. When pushed that it was minor and he could do it himself he said I am not willing to put my lisc. at risk after investing so much time and money in it. I do the prep myself, drape them so only a small square is exposed, then call the nurse in, that is my contribution to accommodating. After I thought about it, couldn't argue. Now perhaps there might be other things but once he explained it made sense. My mother passed in a hospital after getting up in the middle of the night under medication and fell, vomited, and aspirated back into her lungs. The staff was obviously distraught and evasive as we sat with her during her last hours. Later I was told this is a cardinal sin in the hospital for someone to fall and the root of many lawsuits. To me, it was a tragic accident that happened. I didn't blame them and understood but apparently it is common for people to blame the caregiver and seek legal action. Working with the specter of legal action creates protocols that many on the outside do not understand. When patients are under stress, embarrassed and receive responses that seem to deny these issues exist of perhaps at times make them feel like they are the problem they push back, at times to aggressively. Thank you for the conversation and insight. The more I know the more I appreciate.

The hard part about electronic exchanges is it is hard to read intent at times. I am having a little difficulty grasping your thought here Esme12 but I think we are close to being on the same page just speaking a little different language. I would guess that the policy of requiring a female POLICE OFFICER attend female suspects is more a hospital or perhaps even police policy than a matter of law. You are following that policy, as would be expected. Lets face it, while the issues we are discussing here are serious to a degree they are nothing like Blacks faced prior and through the civil rights movements. I mean they were beaten and lynched. Women were not given the right to vote, and if a woman was married to a wife beater, not only was it ignored some justified it. So in lets keep this in perspective. Further I agree that the double standard exists both ways in society, and in many areas of work including medicine. My point of using your quote was the thought process that it was right to provide same gender police for women, but not for men is an obvious example of a double standard. That double standard was not set by nurses, it was set by either police or hospital admin. not to be malicious. While one can justify it with sexual assault, you do so by using that broad brush on all males that providers do not want applied to them by the few bad apples. Society in general does downplay modesty in men, just as it at one time widely held untrue and inaccurate views of women and African Americans. That stereotype to some degree is transferred to the medical system through policy and practice. Again it does not make providers bad people for how it plays out. Historically women and minorities have been treated far worse, no one can logically debate that. I also find it impossible to argue that while things are better, they still face more than I as a white male. It does not however make a double standard against males, even white males right. Wrong is wrong regardless of who and the degree. The double standard is wrong, that does not mean providers are responsible for it. If the policy is female police for female patients, doesn't matter for men, that is what you as would expect a provider to do. But it doesn't make the incident right anymore than it makes you wrong. Nor does what happens to others be they male or female in other areas justify this as a who has it worse mentality provides no winners. While I understand the argument it is OK to discriminate because some men assault women, and further the majority of abuse are men on women, does society say it is OK for stores to shadow Black males or police to pull over Black males more because statistically the highest rate of crime is among Black Males? We as a society said this is not acceptable so it should not be acceptable to apply to a male in the medical setting. No doubt as you stated there are occasions where providers cannot provide same gender for patients of either gender. That just is not possible. No doubt in my mind women and minorities have had it worse in the past and continue to face more challenges than white males. But once again, when it happens to a white male, as appears to be the case here, it is no less wrong. Not sure if I explained that any better, I do agree 100% caregivers are among the best of the best in our society, they have that little extra heart that makes them want to do what they do. You should be offended and defend your fellow caregivers and profession when someone wants to paint you with the broad brush of unethical for the actions of a few. You should be offended when someone says because you do your job as instructed you are a bad or uncaring person. I agree you should not be EXPECTED to put yourself at risk either physically or professionally for the sake of addressing something like institutional discrimination i.e. the double standard. I agree with you 100% on those points, just saying none of this makes the double standard right, regardless of who causes it, regardless of how small it is. But to lay that all on providers ignores the reality of the situation. As you said, it is what it is.

Let me play devils advocate, it is what it is while maybe not acceptable is understandable. While we may get a little self righteous and demand others, in this case nurses stand up and fight for right, we all at times compromise our ethics because it is what it is. I can recall to many times that I did not resist when friends made racist comments, at times I laughed at racist jokes even when I knew it was wrong, I observed wrongs and did not intervene, why do we expect these folks to throw themselves under the bus? Not trying to put words in Esme12's mouth, but they didn't say it was OK, they said it was what it was. I recall watching 4 Georgia state petrolmen ruthlessly harass a young black male at one of the first space shuttle launches in Fla. To this day it haunts me that I did not intervene on his behalf. To this day it sickens me to think about it, and I did nothing. Does not mean I condoned it, hope I would act different today, but it was what it was, I didn't know what to do under the circumstances. There were 4 of them, they were cops, they were bigger than I, honestly I was afraid of the consequences. I think this has been a constructive thread at times as hopefully it opens the eyes to some that the double standard does/may exist, and it is OK to recognize it and not feel you have to be the Rosa Parks of the ER, and on the other side hopefully other realize things are not always as simple as they seem and be slow to judge. On a side note, got a private note from (f) and wanted to say thanks for the clarification. I am as my daughter says e-paired or I would respond privately as well.

Karou, I am not sure since your comment came after mine if you think I am a multiple, if so I can assure you I have a single account, and as far as I know do not have a split personality...but I will check with my alter ego to confirm. Small attempt at humor there. I understand your comments, some posters here do get pretty aggressive in the issue and seem to be obsessed and locked into an opinion that will not be changed. I think the OP and some of those that follow become so passionate because they read many provider post to say "This does not happen". It does not exist period when in fact it appears it does at some level, be it small. Their reaction is not that different than the provider who is upset that they are being labeled due to the actions of a few. If you read the majority of posts they take the opinion it does not happen, does not exist. As a male I can tell you it does but is not rooted in malice or uncaring, nor have I experienced anything as blatant as presented here. It is as Esme12 said, it is what it is. Would it really be logical to expect in a profession, any profession, so dominated by one gender that there would not be some level of this? Toss societal history in and it becomes how could it not. Would anyone expect fire fighters, police departments, the military not to have a male bias? Look at what women are dealing with in those professions. While those examples are at the employee level, it has to flow down in this case to the patient level. Consider the example Esme12 provided, one has to agree the safety of patient and provider is paramount, however consider when it came to female patient/suspects the effort was made for same gender police, males whoever. Take it a step further, if safety is paramount, and an officer is needed to possibly restrain them...would you not want the stronger officer whom is more likely to be physically more able to do this? Would that most likely not be a male. So if it is safety, putting a male officer on either gender may in general be safer due to physical strength. I understand that is really micro inspection and I don't think that is the case, but if you look at it logically, surely you can see that some of the logic applied is hard for some folks to understand and accept. The double standard isn't always blatant and in your face as many women can attest, it is none the less still discrimination, intended or not. Recognizing it's existence is the first step. Doesn't mean you have to take dramatic steps, but keeping your eyes open is key. To be perfectly honest, I never saw the things my wife faced until I had two daughters, then all the subtle things she experienced daily became more evident and more evident to me. All one can ask is keep an open mind and eyes to its existence, the same we ask the other side of this.

Oh and I could not agree more, I get so tired of the condemning all providers & officers for the actions of a very very few, it is ridiculous. On one hand some posters condemn for labeling all male suspects, then respond with examples like Dr. Sparks to judge all providers. I would think we could all agree there are good and bad patients, providers, officers. I don't see value in bringing up specific bad apples to apply to the profession as a whole. It just takes it to a level none of us want applied to us. I am a male, I despise domestic violence and would never ever consider threatening or laying a hand on my wife or daughters in anger or with malice, and I resent greatly any hint that I should be considered a potential abuser because of my gender. Same goes for judging providers, you lose credibility when you do this.

Esme12, I really do appreciate your honest and candid response. I think you hit the issue on the head "I am governed by hospital policy...." The fact that you recognize and more importantly are willing to disclose it says a great deal about the strength of your character. When issues such as this, particularly modesty come up they are often emotionally charged. I often feel it is the institution that puts the true providers, nurses, techs, etc in positions that create a divide between them and the patient. They establish protocol that providers do not agree with. When faced with following their heart and the patient desire vs following the instructions of the institution it is only normal they would follow protocol or they face backlash. That does not make them bad people at all but it may create turmoil for them in doing something they don't agree with. The fact that you will admit this is a huge step, often when we recognize things we cannot change are to some degree wrong we have no choice but to deny they exist even to ourselves. It is self protection. The vast majority of providers are providers because they are compassionate and want to help. Put them in a position that goes against that and it creates a no win. Just admitting it openly takes a certain degree of backbone. That should be appreciated not condemned

SionainnRN I was referring to a comment made by Esme12 back on page 2(?). "Yes there isa double standard for female patients will get a female officer called for that officer to be female...males get whomever...it is what it is". I really am not trying to be disrespectful nor in anyway say the depth of the comparisons is the same when I make the following comments. It really is the tale of the three blind men describing an elephant. And this is not intended to be a blanket comment as this thread has many different thoughts. We as a society have stated it is unaccepted to profile Middle Easterners on planes, African American Males in crime, because while there may be numbers that lead to the suggestion, we assume each person is an individual and should not be labeled. We have decades between the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement and yet stereotypes and issues remain. Is it such a stretch to think the same exists for males in medical settings. For generations it was assumed males just did not have the same level of concern or perhaps deserve the same level of respect. While long gone are the days of forced naked swimming in school, long lines of naked men for military physicals, etc. There is now realization that equal means equal and an effort to correct past transgressions but it takes time and there may always be residual. I have two daughters and have heard and experienced mainly men but some women making truly sexist comments. I took an attorney to a school board meeting to explain title 13 and the ramifications of not giving my daughters and their friends equal gym time for basketball. It is there, in a field so predominately female, is it really that unlikely that a double standard at some degree would exist without any intent or realization.

After reading the 8 pages of comments there is a lot digest. I question some of the accounts as well, understand perspective plays a lot in interpetation, sometimes we embelish to make our point. One thing however is present in many of the posts is avoidance of the main issue, is there a double standard. Early on one poster admitted the double standard, that they would get a female officer for female patients, males got whoever was avaiable, that is just the way it is. That is more to the core of the issue here. Kudos for putting it out there. Many defended or justified providers, some police, a few indicated they were considerate of both genders. But few addressed the issue, why would "it is just the way it is" be acceptable? If the police officer is a professional and is justified being present, why would that not apply to male officers and female patients. It is understood the gender dispairity in providers creates issues for some wanting same gender. But in that post, it was not a situation of could not, it was an intentional effort for females,and lack of concern or perhaps effort for males, and no one had a problem with thats just the way it is. Does that not indicate a double standard that someone would so plainly say yes we do this...and no one reacted negatively? Should not a double standard be wrong regardless of who it applied for or against? That is the issue on this post.

I have to agree, I find focusing on semantics to be a reach, terms like the "good old boys", "old boys club" etc are used all the time. I do however have to agree referring to women as "catty" or equating "drama" to females as if it is exclusive does fit the bill of sexist. not all drama is created by females any more than aggressive behavior is owned by males. Not sure what the masculine term for this behavior is but it exists with or without a label.

Does anyone else feel like breaking out in a round of the song "Why can't we be friends, why can't we be friends". Bias is wrong, that simple, always was, always will be,

dudette if we were talking about the past I would agree with you 100%. I have two grown daughters, while I witnessed sexism to the point where I took my corporate attorney to a school board meeting to explain title 9 to them I can confidently say neither have been banned from a job due to gender. I have been married to the same wonderful woman for 35 years and knew her for 5 before that. I know she has never been barred from entering a job because she was female, that became illegal many years before my wife entered the workforce. Other than some special circumstances such as military combat I don't know of any occupation that bars either gender (and the combat prohibition is changing). It has been illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender for several generations. On the other hand affirmative action has been and as per the case with U of M Med, is still practiced. It is much more likely that someone in the workforce and especially those seeking employment today would experience affirmative action than being barred. I think it is disingenuous to claim women today need affirmative action to address the fact that they have been barred from employment due to their gender. There comes a point where the past is the past and we must live in the present. This is not to diminish the tremendous wrongs of the past, but to claim they justify sexism and a double standard today is looking for justification rather than equality. The challenges a female entering a male dominated profession, and a male entering a female dominated profession today are much more alike than they are different. Agreed in the past that was not the case.

And that is the double standard I was referring to. Affirmative action is needed and justified for females to rectify the past but it is wrong for males. Of course at one time males were discouraged or prevented from becoming nurses, during WWII for example. Females have not been barred from engineering schools but like nursing the disparity was great so they have done numerous "affirmative action" efforts to increase. There are numerous fields that were ignored by females because it was male dominated not because they were barred that have taken efforts to increase diversity. Diversity is either good or bad, it isn't good or bad depending on who is on which side. Societal stigma and pressure can have the same affect as "barring" as many minorities can attest. At some point one has to look at the present and stop justifying on the past. The benefits of diversity are not just for the provider, it is for patients as well. I would contend patients would benefit more from the diversity than providers. Improving diversity for the benefit of all involved should be the focus, not the gender of those who may benefit. Saying only females not males deserve consideration for this is about as sexist as saying being "catty" is a female only trait or that "males are better suited to ascend to management". Defining right or wrong, entitled or not, qualified or not by gender, race, religion is wrong, it always has been, but hopefully we understand that. It is harder to recognize on those not traditionally viewed as "minorities".